Bold Beautiful Borderline

Addiction, Sobriety, and Everything in Between

April 10, 2021 Sara Amundson & Laurie Edmundson Season 1 Episode 20
Bold Beautiful Borderline
Addiction, Sobriety, and Everything in Between
Chapters
Bold Beautiful Borderline
Addiction, Sobriety, and Everything in Between
Apr 10, 2021 Season 1 Episode 20
Sara Amundson & Laurie Edmundson

Sara is actively on her recovery journey from alcoholism, hitting 60 days of sobriety on the day this episode was recorded. She discusses her motivation to change, how she’s feeling now, and her goals for the future around substances. 


Laurie has not found herself to have an addiction to drugs, but rather food and people. Instead, she is focusing on how to be a better friend to people who are struggling with substance addiction by changing her social habits that encourage drinking.


Here's some data on substance use and some recovery resources:

https://www.samhsa.gov/data/data-we-collect/nsduh-national-survey-drug-use-and-health
https://westsidecentraloffice.com/online-a-a-meetings
https://virtual-na.org
https://www.smartrecovery.org/community/ 

You can find Laurie and Sara on Instagram to follow their day to day lives even further @laurieanned and @saraswellnessway. You can also find the podcast on IG @boldbeautifulborderline


You can also find Sara's business as a Mental Health Clinician and mental health coach at thewellnesswayllc.com


If you like the show we would love if you could rate, subscribe and support us on Patreon.



For mental health supports:


National Suicide Prevention Lifeline, 1-800-273-TALK (8255) or Live Online Chat

SAMHSA Treatment Referral Helpline, 1-877-SAMHSA7 (1-877-726-4727)

OR find a local warmline to you at https://screening.mhanational.org/content/need-talk-someone-warmlines 

Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/boldbeautifulborderline)

Show Notes Transcript

Sara is actively on her recovery journey from alcoholism, hitting 60 days of sobriety on the day this episode was recorded. She discusses her motivation to change, how she’s feeling now, and her goals for the future around substances. 


Laurie has not found herself to have an addiction to drugs, but rather food and people. Instead, she is focusing on how to be a better friend to people who are struggling with substance addiction by changing her social habits that encourage drinking.


Here's some data on substance use and some recovery resources:

https://www.samhsa.gov/data/data-we-collect/nsduh-national-survey-drug-use-and-health
https://westsidecentraloffice.com/online-a-a-meetings
https://virtual-na.org
https://www.smartrecovery.org/community/ 

You can find Laurie and Sara on Instagram to follow their day to day lives even further @laurieanned and @saraswellnessway. You can also find the podcast on IG @boldbeautifulborderline


You can also find Sara's business as a Mental Health Clinician and mental health coach at thewellnesswayllc.com


If you like the show we would love if you could rate, subscribe and support us on Patreon.



For mental health supports:


National Suicide Prevention Lifeline, 1-800-273-TALK (8255) or Live Online Chat

SAMHSA Treatment Referral Helpline, 1-877-SAMHSA7 (1-877-726-4727)

OR find a local warmline to you at https://screening.mhanational.org/content/need-talk-someone-warmlines 

Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/boldbeautifulborderline)

Sara Amundson:

Hi, everyone, welcome to the bold, beautiful borderline podcast. I'm Sara, and I'm here with my fabulous favorite co host Laurie. And today we're going to talk about substance use as it relates to borderline personality disorder. Which I'm 60 days sober today. And that's really exciting. So yeah, I think I have a lot to say on this topic. But I also think Laurie has a lot to say in terms of her own different experiences.

Laurie Edmundson:

Well, congratulations on your 60 days, that's super exciting. And I'm so proud of you. It's incredible. So it's interesting for me, because Sarah and I have a very different like, experience and relationship with substances. So I, I do drink on occasion, but I can confidently say that I've never had a problem with substance use for I don't know, when the last time I drank was like probably like two or three months ago. And like, I just like, don't even notice, you know what I mean? Whereas like, I know, for Sara, it was like an actual like issue. And so, I don't know, 30 want to talk about, like, your experience with substances and like, what made you want to be sober?

Sara Amundson:

Yeah. So without, you know, putting too much out there. And we can edit this out? Or you can obviously declined to answer but I don't know much about like, your family history with substance use, like, is there? Do you have any people close to you with substance use disorders?

Laurie Edmundson:

No. I mean, like, Are there are there potentially a few people that like, drink a mate, maybe a little too much? Like, maybe one, but to be honest with you, like I have seen my parents intoxicated, like, twice in my entire life?

Sara Amundson:

Yeah, um, so I'm not going to talk about my parents, but my, both sides of my parents family, heavy, heavy, heavy alcoholism and drug use, specifically opioids, and heroin and alcohol. So I was raised knowing that and I was also also raised around alcohol. And I can confidently say that I qualified for binge drinking disorder, alcohol use disorder. And it's weird, because, like, my thing is, I don't wake up in the morning and crave liquor. But I cannot just have two drinks. I've always had 10 drinks, or 12 drinks, or, you know, like, I've blacked out more times than I could ever count, slept in my own vomit slept in my own urine, slept in bathtubs. I've, unfortunately had moments, although it's been years since this has happened. But I've unfortunately had moments where I drove myself home and I don't know how I got there. I have had quite a few therapists over the years mention, it's maybe time that we look at Mike trying some sort of sobriety or like harm reduction model to using less substances. But I, I mean, I'm an alcoholic, like I'm an alcoholic. I don't like I've never liked to be high. I've, I've literally like, tried almost no drugs. But there's just something about alcohol for me that is if I am going to a bar to have, you know, people are like, let's go out for a beer and I know that for me, let's go out for a beer turns into six. And it was really evident in the divorce because Tori and I were in the process of our separation and we went up the street to our corner liquor store, which everybody who listens to the podcast knows I love we're on potato vodka and grapefruit. That's my thing. So we went up the street to the liquor store and for whatever reason, like she got a half gallon of Portland potato vodka, but I was like, I want Long Island iced teas. So I got a half gallon of what I needed to make Long Island iced teas and Island through that half gallon in four days. I remember watching because we both got a half gallon. I remember watching the liquor, just be like draining so fast in mind versus hers. And I mean granted, this is a really painful time but in my separation I just started binge drinking like, I mean September till when I got sober. I was just binge drinking so much because like it was that thing keeping me away from the pain and the divorce. But if I trace my drinking behavior back like, I had my first blackout in a in a middle school playground when I was 14.

Laurie Edmundson:

Wow. So yeah, it's it's, it was kind of like zero to 100. Right? Like you. You've never,

Sara Amundson:

that was the first time I ever drink alcohol.

Laurie Edmundson:

And what about the second time like, because I mean, sometimes like, preteens are stupid, and they just drink too much like, was that like, the first time of many that age?

Sara Amundson:

Oh, yeah, I mean, there was, there was a lot of parties where I would be in the bathroom, or the back room throwing up before I got a ride home. In fact, I was 18. And I was throwing up in a bathroom. And I like really needed to pee and I couldn't get off the floor. And my boyfriend at the time had to call his mom to come get me. She was like the only person that could get me off the floor and mortifying, right. Like I remember kind of coming in and out of it. And I remember kind of thinking, like, I'm making my way down through this party with a mom, I'm 18. And I'm so so so drunk, but I was always able to just laugh it off as like the funny girl or the loud girl or the, you know, the cute girl or the like, you can't touch me cuz I fuckin know who I am, like, I'm, you know, and the thing is, is that I surrounded myself with people who had drinking behavior similar to my own. And so while I was always a little bit more than their drinking behavior, it wasn't that uncommon, I spent all of my I mean, a ton of binge drinking between 18 to 21. But once I hit 21, it was Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday at the same dive bar for years. And I remember, like, I got my rent paid. And then I was like, we got to go out to the barn. And I know, there's a $50 bill around here that my grandma sent in a birthday card. If we can just find this $50 bill, we're gonna be able to get Coors Light and fireball shots.

Laurie Edmundson:

You know? Yeah. And like, I think that's the thing, right, is we demonize we obviously, I don't demonize, but, uh, like society, demonizes people who use drugs, but then they glorify people who drink alcohol, which is a drug. And right, so I mean, nobody's gonna bat an eye, if you go to the bar five days a week, like, Oh, it's a social thing. Oh, she's just like a regular, you know, whereas if you were doing heroin every day after work, people would be a little bit more concerned about it. Whereas alcohol is so dangerous.

Sara Amundson:

Yeah. And it's interesting, because I was 21. And I moved to the city where I didn't have any friends and going to the bars was the only way I knew how to make friends, right. It's also the only way I knew how to feel confident enough to like, flirt with people and have sex with people. And then it just became a big part of how I wanted to unwind and how I wanted to have fun. And by going back to the dangerous part thing, I Laurie knows, I tried to get sober. I was sober for like eight days in January. And then I started drinking again. And then I got sober 60 days ago, but I 1,000% was going through withdrawals, and I was in bed for like 36 hours, maybe literally couldn't get out of bed. I was so sick. And I was taking a medication to try to reduce my, the severity of my cravings, which the name of is not coming to me right now. But I think like I haven't been really honest with people about how bad my drinking behavior was even this last year. I mean, I was drinking white claw and driving every night. Yeah, that's that. Yeah, I'm sober. That's the thing, right?

Laurie Edmundson:

Like, I'm so proud of you for being sober. But, I mean, I remember how sick you were, like, you were really fucking sick. And like, I don't even live near you. Right, but just even just hearing how sick you were. And like, it just felt impossible. Right? But now, my understanding is you other than this last couple of weeks. You feel really good. You know, you've been able to go through a lot of shit in the last couple of weeks without needing to drink.

Sara Amundson:

Yeah, and that's the thing too, is like, Okay, so I've been sober for 60 days, but there was literally one day I had like a craving like I was craving liquor. I was craving vodka. I don't have cravings. Like it's not about the the it's not about the actual alcohol. It's about the sad So it's about the feelings, it's about the wanting to disappear. You know, alcohol is a really good way for us to disappear. And we want to disappear a lot when we have borderline personality disorder, like let's just be real.

Laurie Edmundson:

So you just said the depression or whatever you said, the sadness. So do you find that drinking makes you less sad? Or does drinking just, you drink so much that you end up just blacking out and not thinking about it?

Sara Amundson:

I drink more when I'm sad. And it helps me to have that instant dopamine rush. And I think that's the difference between people who don't have an alcohol or substance use disorder and people who do, like they're like you, right? You could have a cider to ciders. And it's not going to impact you the same way it's going to impact me and I think my understanding anyways, is genetically I just experienced more dopamine from the drug than you do because I come from, I mean, for generations of alcoholics and drug addicts, and I mean, like hepatitis C, from intravenous drug use. Yeah, living living on sheltered. Being in prison for several year like, there was a lot of drug use and alcohol use in my family.

Laurie Edmundson:

Yeah, and that's an interesting comparison, because I was just kind of reflecting and I don't think if I were to be sad, I don't think I would really ever turn to alcohol, because it doesn't make me less sad. Like, if anything, I just get kind of, like mad or like, tired or more sad, right? So it is probably that just like, legitimate genetic difference where, for me, the only times that I like, feel like I, you know, need to drink, which is not really the case would would have been when I was like, you know, sleeping around a lot. And I just, like kind of needed to do that to loosen up. I don't feel like that anymore now, like, at all.

Sara Amundson:

Have you ever been addicted to anything?

Laurie Edmundson:

Food?

Sara Amundson:

I mean, yeah, that's real. Yeah, yeah. That's all that's very real.

Laurie Edmundson:

But not a lot of substance. Other than food. I mean, that's a substance but you know what I mean? Like not a drug.

Sara Amundson:

A mind altering substance. Yeah, I am. So I smoked cigarettes for 18 to 23. And I smoked a pack a day of Campbell menthol, sometimes, like 25 cigarettes, a little bit more than a pack a day. Which is weird to say, Millennials don't consume nicotine the same way that boomers did. And certainly the generation before. A Gen, excuse me a Gen Y. And then certainly boomers, boomers smoked a lot of cigarettes. But that was kind of weird. Like I I was, I remember thinking I have no stronger friends than the cigarette like. The cigarette is always here for me. I love I love this camel, menthol. Like there's nothing I want to do more the first like moment I wake up in the last moment before I go to bed. That is how I felt about alcohol to at one point, it was like nothing makes me feel as good as this. fresh squeezed cold vodka on ice with a little bit of grapefruit. And it was always weird because like, I noticed my drinking behavior. Not only was I drinking more than my friends, but I was ordering doubles.

Laurie Edmundson:

Right? Which is an easy way to and impulsive. So did you find? Did you find that you were always drinking with friends? like for you? It was a purely social thing, or were you also drinking alone on the days that you weren't being social?

Sara Amundson:

My binge drinking through the divorce I drank alone the entire time.

Laurie Edmundson:

Right. Okay. I mean, to be fair, that was the middle of a pandemic. So like prior to that, would it have been like that?

Sara Amundson:

Yeah, I mean, I was alone a lot in my marriage. But I definitely. So here's my thing is I have no problem hopping up the street to my local dive bar and getting fucked up and then stumbling home by myself. Like, there's an old man next to me at the bar. I'm going to spark up a conversation. You know what I mean? I just will find social opportunities in drinking.

Laurie Edmundson:

Yeah, and it's easy to do, right? Like, I mean, even if you think about, I mean, not even dating, but like now, we're kind of allowed to go outside and see people and the first thing I want to do is go to a patio and have a drink, but I don't actually really care about having a drink, right? Like and that's the difference. That's where like the last couple months of the pandemic has changed. For me. It's like I just like don't tolerate alcohol very well. So like, I can have half a mimosa and be like, I need to have a four hour nap. And so for me like it's just become that drinking just isn't fun for me anymore because I get so tired that I just like there's no point. But at the same time, it's so engrained in our social framework that Oh, hey, let's go for a drink. There's nothing that you want to do more than have a Bellini on a patio or like sangria on a patio. Like that's like, the beginning of spring. You know what I mean? And

Sara Amundson:

now those are some froofy drinks. Laurie, you're obviously not an alcoholic.

Laurie Edmundson:

I am not the fact that you just like drink vodka, by itself is absolutely disgusting.

Sara Amundson:

you know what? I lemon wedge and a lime wedge.

Laurie Edmundson:

If I went and grabbed a shot of vodka right now, and you watched me do it, you'd like die laughing because I could not I would not. I would get like it near my face and be like, this is the most disgusting thing I've ever smelled. I can't do it. Okay, again, lemon and lime. Even that, I don't even think I can't even really do vodka. CRAN

Sara Amundson:

Yeah, I don't know what to tell you. Then I listen, like you put it in front of me. I'm gonna drink it. Like, the only thing I won't drink is gin. And that's because when I was 18, I drank an entire fifth of seagrams gin, warm and I went to an underage gay club and I danced on the stage and I fell off and I hit the concrete floor and I pulled my best friend Naveed down with me and he hit the concrete floor, but he also hit a pole on his way. That's a weird. There's a pole in that story, too. He also had a pole on his way down and he got a hematoma on his hip, like giant blood clot like this.

Laurie Edmundson:

Oh, my God, Jesus.

Sara Amundson:

So see, Jen just rubs me the wrong way. I think it's worth noting that the differences again, between you and I are like, more adjusted. Not that you haven't experienced trauma, you absolutely happen more in depth, trauma, history, right trauma, biologically rewires the brain. And my sexual trauma specifically makes it sometimes hard to like interact with men in the just sense of a hookup. And so like liquor made that easier.

Laurie Edmundson:

Yeah, I was actually wondering about that when you were first talking and, and again, like, I wouldn't. Anyway, I don't want to go into sexual trauma pieces. But

Sara Amundson:

now we don't have to.

Laurie Edmundson:

Yeah, but but like, for me, it was more just I think, I don't know, I used to for sure only drink and have sex. Like That was when I was especially like, with people that I didn't feel comfortable with. Like, there were probably years where I didn't ever have sex, not drunk, you know what I mean? But now that's not the case. I couldn't care less. But maybe. And I

Sara Amundson:

think that that's something that a lot of, especially women with borderline personality disorder can relate to. You know, it's like, if you want that intimacy, but you have this deep self hate. How do you accomplish the intimacy? Will you erase the hate by giving yourself a drug?

Laurie Edmundson:

Yeah, and the body image issues. And you know, there's all of those pieces for sure. And I'm thinking back on people that like, I genuinely disliked, and I was like, Well, I'm gonna have sex with them anyway. So I may as well be drunk. You know what I mean? Like, cuz I just was like, I actually despise you as a human. But like, here we are. So it's the easy way out. But to me that never led to like a substance use issue that was just like, maybe a person issue on my end.

Sara Amundson:

Yeah, I mean, sometimes when I hear us talk about some of these things, it's like, they are so fucking happy, right? Like, so much sadness comes back to this deep sense of self hate.

Laurie Edmundson:

Yeah,

Sara Amundson:

wonder what I wonder what my life would have looked like if I wouldn't have experienced that self hate. I mean, sure, I'm genetically predisposed to have a substance use disorder. But what if I liked myself? And I was like, maybe there was space made for me my whole life? What I have had a substance use issue. I don't know. Right? It's like, what would you have been having sex with people you didn't like?

Laurie Edmundson:

I guess, I guess that in itself is a little strange. Right. But common, I mean, it's not uncommon for sure. Yeah. I mean, I think it's one of those things where like, I know, you know, there's the whole like, just marijuana cause schizophrenia thing. And it's like, Well, not really, but like, if you're predisposed to schizophrenia, marijuana might trigger it right. So like, say with substance use, like you very well could be like biologically wired to be more likely to have a substance use issue, but then the compounding traumas that you experienced as a kid or and or the situations that you were presented with, led you down that path that you're now kind of fighting against, right?

Sara Amundson:

I think it's also worth noting, like, I'm still holding out hope that someday I can consume like her in a more appropriate manner, which probably does further indicates my substance use issue.

Laurie Edmundson:

But oh, I don't think it does. I think it's the exact opposite, actually. And I was just gonna ask you that question. Or I was gonna wait till the end. But we can ask it now is like, your goal is not to be sober forever, or is it?

Sara Amundson:

I think if I want the best life quality possible, my goal should be to be sober forever. That being said, Man, it's hard for me to imagine a life where I never go to another country music festival and drink all day, like with my friends. You know what I mean? I'm, I love that. I would miss that. Do I miss drinking every day? No, do I miss? Sure. Should you not miss drinking white claws and driving? But like the occasional drinks at the gay club? Fuck, that's great.

Laurie Edmundson:

But are you able to have the same experiences and not drink?

Sara Amundson:

So it's, and that's where I'm at is like, the times in my life where my binge drinking has been out of control has been, of course, positively correlated with the most chaotic events happening. So my divorce from Tori, the end of my engagement from McKenzie, five years ago. I mean, those were times in my life really, really, really, really heavy drinking behavior. There's also been times in my life where I've had a super healthy relationship with alcohol when Tori and I first started dating is, it's kind of hard to know, because I was deep in my eating disorder. So so I was afraid of alcohol. But when Tori and I first started dating, I was running a ton. Like I was running, I ran a marathon, or half marathon every month, the entire first like two years of us dating. So I was training a lot. And like, I just had a lot going on, and I was hardly ever drinking. When you were away a better relationship with alcohol.

Laurie Edmundson:

When you said you were afraid of alcohol, it was not because of the calories. Yeah. Okay. Just just wanted to clarify. Thanks.

Sara Amundson:

So no, I think there's potential for potential for it, like a healthier relationship with it. But for now, I just think that this is what's best. And I also like, my mom has an autoimmune disorder that I increase my likelihood of developing by 50% by drinking alcohol. So one thing I was kind of keep in the back of my mind to have like, I really don't want to trigger any kind of rheumatic episode.

Laurie Edmundson:

Right, that's, I mean, that's funny, because that's the exact same thing. We were just saying, right? We're like, you, you may be predisposed, but you may never end up with it. But there are things that may trigger it to get worse. Right. So that makes a lot of sense.

Sara Amundson:

And actually, now that you say that, I know that people who have who have been drunk or blacked out prior to their 16th birthday have a much higher likelihood of developing a substance use issue, which again, I was 14.

Laurie Edmundson:

Hmm. Interesting. I would be curious, obviously, you can't do an RCT on that. But I would be curious to know, like, if that's because people who are more likely to have a substance use or like an addiction challenge, are more likely to start drinking earlier. Right? Because I mean, like, I didn't start drinking till I was like 18, probably.

Sara Amundson:

Yeah, I actually just pulled a 28 teen journal article, which we can I will link to in the show notes. But binge drinking is the dominant type of alcohol misuse in young people. It typically begins in adolescence with the prevalence of binge drinking, increasing sharply between 12 and 25 years old, although young people drink less frequently than older adults, they tend to drink more on occasion. This increases the risk of shit, it increases the risk of a lot of things.

Laurie Edmundson:

Oh, totally injury, health issues.

Sara Amundson:

sexual assault. I'm trying to find the statistic of developing a substance use disorder in adulthood. But nonetheless, yeah,

Laurie Edmundson:

yeah. It's it would be interesting. Like I have no doubt that that statistic is correct. It's just it'll it would be interesting to know, like, what other factors are in there, right. Yeah.

Sara Amundson:

Should we talk recovery?

Laurie Edmundson:

Yeah, I want to just quickly talk about harm reduction. So I find In the work that I do outside of this, there is a big demonization, for lack of a better word of substance use, to the point where it's like, it's you either are an addict or you're not. And there's no like middle ground. And so as someone who lives in that middle ground of like, I can have a drink, and it not be a problem. I'm like, legitimately Have a drink not have a problem. I just want to clarify that that is also okay. And that, obviously, like it's an individual journey, and like it very much depends on what, what you're able to do, right. So like, it's the same with any addiction, right? Like, you may be able to go to the casino and only bring $20 or you may not be able to even look at a casino and go in, right? And so, sometimes substance use can look like, or sorry, sometimes harm reduction can look like, Okay, well, Sara was having two or like, six double vodkas a day. And now she's having two singles a day, right? Like it can just be limiting. It doesn't need to necessarily be fully cutting out the substance and personal personal choice and all of that, but just wanted to kind of say that it's not one or the other, right? Like you don't, you can live in that middle ground. Which is ironic, because normally, I'm a black and white thinker. But I just, I just have a lot of conversations in my career that are about if you have a drink, then you are therefore an alcoholic or whatever. And it's not true.

Sara Amundson:

Yeah, and I don't I think I'm an alcoholic.

Laurie Edmundson:

Right? Yeah, no, totally. And you can't like that, like, fine, right? But not everybody is

Sara Amundson:

no, yes. Yeah. And that's not where I was going with this. I think like, I could have healthier behavior, drinking, and I'll still be an alcoholic. Does that make sense? Like, sure, I can develop systems and put them in place for myself. And that's not going to change the fact that I'm an alcoholic. So I think that that's pot like, there are people that have substance use issues that do drink or use more preventatively or proactively than than other people. And that's what harm reduction is, right? I mean, Who says that? Who says that? I'm don't get to drink? I mean, nobody gets to determine that for me.

Laurie Edmundson:

Yeah, and I think that's where, in my job, I find, it's challenging, because some people like think that they can, right. So I mean, it's the same with like, in Canada, they recently are in BC, at least they recently changed some legislation around like being able to force children into treatment. I don't agree with that.

Sara Amundson:

Force children into treatment for what?

Laurie Edmundson:

Like addiction. So like, as a mom, I could say, my kid needs to go to treatment. And it's it. There's, I mean, there's a whole debate that could be like an entire podcast, but

Sara Amundson:

what age because can't can't kids their consent to their own services over the age of 13? Or no?

Laurie Edmundson:

I don't remember the specifics, to be honest. But anyways, it's, it's a whole thing. But like, trying to force somebody to be sober can happen in a power dynamic, right? It Anyway, it's very complicated. And I can't talk about all of it on here. But yeah, anyway, it's just, it's just interesting. But yeah, let's talk about recovery. What does that mean to you? What does that look like to you?

Sara Amundson:

Yeah, I mean, I think going off of that, it's exactly what you said, right? recovery is not going to nobody is going to determine that it's your time for recovery. That's why it never works. When anybody wants to like sit people down and have a have a family. Whatever they call intervention. Yeah, some sob story intervention, like, cool. Like, if my parents had sat me down and been like, Sarah, you needed to stop drinking. I would have been like, bitch pour me another like, until I decided it was me. And it was for me, and it was for my health that you know, and for me, I remember it was a Sunday night, I think I was like, eight or nine Long Island's in I stumbled upstairs. I called someone on the phone that I didn't want to call. It was a really awkward conversation. And I remember being like, just flooded with shame. Like, I felt so much shame and so long, and I thought to myself, how do I like I started hearing myself doing that. Oh, I was normalizing that Oh, wait. They're gonna shake it off. They know you're drunk. People do this. And then I was like, wait a minute, Sarah. Like it was this weird, wise mind moment of the only way to stop feeling the shame is to stop drinking. It was less Serious come to Jesus movement moment. And I think most people have to have that if they want to. If they want to commit to your sobriety, you have to have a reason why you're doing it. And for me, it's like, no more shame. I couldn't possibly feel any shame anymore that I'm bringing on myself. There's enough out there circumstantially through the divorce and through everything else. So any further shame is like, I can't handle it. But I think it's really important for people to the classic stuff environment. stop spending time with people who binge drink or, you know, use substances. Notice the impact that like the people around you have on you. That's huge. And, of course, there's like, especially now with zoom and everything God you could get on a or na, every hour all day long if you wanted to. So being willing to go to some of those. And the weird thing about a is it's all Bible II and churchy. And that's sometimes weird, but like, just replace the word God with something else. And, and just go listen to the stories and feel that sense of community. I think that's really important. But I fully support a harm reduction model. Like I said, I hope to someday drink again, if it can be more adaptive and healthy. Um, I fully support like, decriminalizing substance use. I don't know what it's like in Canada, but we just voted to decriminalize this last session for all drugs.

Laurie Edmundson:

Yeah, I think Vancouver like the City of Vancouver is working on. I mean, we're like the people that work in mental health and substance use are all working towards that. But of course, there's there's different opinion opinions out there. So like, for example, like I live in a very conservative city. I, there's, for a while that might the city I live in was, like had something that said they were officially a harm reduction free zone, which is insane. So like, any safe injection sites have to understand that like,

Sara Amundson:

Narcan will save their nephew's life.

Laurie Edmundson:

Well, that and like harm reduction is seatbelts condoms. Like vaccines, you know what I mean? Like, there's like, what? Anyway, so um, it's, it'll be a while until the city that I'm in, is interested in that. And then the political party federally is not ready to make that commitment. But I think that it's coming. And I can assure you that everybody in the mental health and substance use field is advocating very strongly for that, because bc has been destroyed by the overdose crisis. It's been unreal.

Sara Amundson:

Yeah, I mean, it's only happened in Oregon. We're the first nationally to do it, if I recall correctly. But yeah, I think because the CO occurring diagnosis of BPD. And substance use is so high, it's important that like, all of our DBT programs, or substance use and trauma informed, I think that's happening, and that that's going pretty well for people. I know, when I was in DBT, it was possible to get drug counseling services in DBT, as well, like you could go to groups specific to substance use drug use, you could go to groups specific to eating disorders, like those kinds of things. And I really appreciate that about DBT. And it's really cool using the skills. Yeah, I think using the skills that we learn in DBT is like one of the best ways to stay sober, honestly, like, I'm constantly fact checking.

Laurie Edmundson:

Well, yeah, I mean, DBT has started being used pretty heavily in substance use an eating disorder treatment. Right. So that makes a ton of sense. Or do you find that substance use is often a exclusion criteria for treatment in the States?

Sara Amundson:

You know, that's interesting, I would say that, depending on the severity of a person substance use, and the same goes for their eating disorder, they might receive treatment primary to that and not actually receive treatment for their BPD, which is concerning, because it's generally the BPD that's the underlying cause of the substance use or the eating disorder. But that BBD won't necessarily take someone's life, whereas like the eating disorder, certainly, well, the impulsivity around substance use certainly could. So

Laurie Edmundson:

which is why it's great that they have those options where you can be doing both like concurrently right, because yeah, I don't that was for sure. Not an option that I was offered. But of course, I wouldn't have been offered that option because I like didn't have a substance use issue, but I don't think that that

Sara Amundson:

often about an eating disorder, though.

Laurie Edmundson:

It never came up. I've never been diagnosed with an eating disorder. So I mean, I have one I just have never been diagnosed with one. Okay, so it's a file.

Sara Amundson:

Yeah, I was at the time I went through DBT. I didn't need substance use treatment. So I don't know what it's like to go to those groups, but they do have them. I think that just it just shows the importance of really administering like strong comprehensive bio psychosocial as clinicians, and really getting to the root of the substance use because we're all drinking or drugging for a specific reason.

Laurie Edmundson:

Totally. Yeah. And same with the anger and all that all the symptoms of BPD are come down to the same thing, right? I was just gonna say a few things about as somebody who doesn't have a substance use issue, how I have been kind of on a journey to realize that, like, I'm not, I haven't been doing everything I need to, to be supportive of those around me to be sober. And to, to not like normalize substance use in every way, if that makes sense.

Sara Amundson:

I'm interested to hear where you're going with this.

Laurie Edmundson:

Well, like, for example, so of course, like, I'm just gonna ignore COVID right now, because it's not relevant because it doesn't, I've haven't been social in a year. But my like, I love throwing parties. Favorite thing in the world is to host parties. And a lot of our party's like, we'll have a beer pong tournament at our party. And like, we played this game called beer baseball, which is so much fun. But like, if you weren't drinking, you wouldn't be able to play your baseball, right? And so like, things like that, were just the friend group that I associate with myself with, I wouldn't say that there's anybody in my friend group that has like a serious substance use issue. But we've completely normalized substance use. And to the point where if I were trying to be sober, I probably wouldn't come to the events that we host because I would not come? Yeah. Because it would be impossible to and, and so I've noticed that in the last couple of years. and been like, okay, I really need to change this in our group of friends. Right? And

Sara Amundson:

it's not just you or a society teaches you to do that. No, I mean, the cool kids in school through the basket parties, you know what I mean? Like, that's just what we've done.

Laurie Edmundson:

Yeah, no, I totally agree with you. But I'm just saying, like, I have, in the last couple of years, put myself like, made myself think about it. Because I don't have to think about it, right? Because I don't have this problem. So like, I can go to a party and say no to a drink or say yes to a drink. And it doesn't matter either way, because I can stop after one drink. Or I can stop after five. And it's not a big deal. So it's interesting, because I kind of stopped drinking just because I just don't really care anymore. I just like, I'm not into it. And if I was at a friend's house, it's still like, oh, like have a glass of cider. It's like, Oh, no, I'm good. No, no, seriously, just have one. No, I'm good. And, and like, I'm sure I've been that person before. Like, I have no doubt. And I think in the last couple of years, I've not been that person as much. But it's definitely like prevalent and just being somebody who just like, didn't want to have a drink that day. I can't even imagine how hard it would be if you're like legitimately trying to not drink at all.

Sara Amundson:

I was just wondering if you can relate to this idea, though, as someone who has an eating disorder.

Laurie Edmundson:

100%

Sara Amundson:

because we normalize food so much at our events, and I didn't go to a single event for like, almost a year when I was starving myself because I was so afraid to be around food.

Laurie Edmundson:

100 right. So that I mean, there's no question I can 100% i've i've not gone to a for everything because of that. You know, oh, well, I can't exactly measure my food. So how am I supposed to go to this and like, have dinner at somebody else's house? Or like, oh, what if they have dessert there? And I can't like, totally, but I think because dieting is unfortunately approved of in. I mean, that's changing, but

Sara Amundson:

people are cool. I mean, it's even celebrated.

Laurie Edmundson:

Yeah, I'm a fat person. People want me to be dieting. Right? So like, if I was to go to somebody's house and say, Oh, I'm doing Weight Watchers, or Oh, I'm not or I'm counting my calories. That wouldn't be question. They'd be like, Oh, good for you. Whereas, if you said, Oh, I'm not drinking tonight, they would be like, Oh, no, have one. It's fine. Right? Like, it's just crazy how different it is. And so, the so I mean, I haven't had to think about it too much because we haven't been able to do anything fun, but like, the next time we have a party or the next time like we go out to my cabin and play beer baseball, like I'm for sure gonna have an option where like you can have whatever drink you want, right like so that you can still play and not feel excluded. And like the bartender that we hired for our wedding, for example, on his like the front page of his website it said like, I make sure that there's like cool fun, non alcoholic drinks for people that have like that don't drink because it's not fair that they're just drinking juice. They're not children. And I was like, Kate, that's who we're hiring.

Sara Amundson:

I literally have been so anxious thinking about your wedding. Like, I've been like, there was this I was going to relapse. It's going to be Laureus wedding.

Laurie Edmundson:

Yeah, I think you've said that. And I'm gonna try really, really, really hard for that not to be a situation where you feel like that needs to be the case. Like, of course, our bartender. I literally didn't even look for other options and was like, Oh, do you want to look for other quotes? And I was like, Nope, that's the person, if that's on the first page of a bartenders website, this is the person I want. No question. And again, like, I'm sure that we're going to play baseball at the wedding, not at the wedding, but like, the day before, or whatever. And like, I'm going to make sure that I have a conscious way to make that inclusive of people who don't drink. Because that's not fair. And like, we shouldn't be glorifying, drinking, and excluding people who don't, because that's stupid. But it's like really hard to do. Because it's, like, so ingrained in our culture, like so ingrained. So I have to like, I shouldn't have to actively think about how I can, like, navigate this as a host of whatever. But I do, because it's like, the assumption is that you'll be drinking, you know?

Sara Amundson:

Yeah, I mean, that's what we do at all of our holidays. Like, that's what?

Laurie Edmundson:

Dinner Party holiday, every time you ask somebody to go hang out casually, it's Hey, do you wanna go for a drink? Like, literally, I mean, it's either go for a coffee or go for a drink, but if it's after five, it's gonna be a drink, you know?

Sara Amundson:

Yeah. And that's a really weird thing of like, starting to date again. Everybody is like, do you want to get a drink? And I'm like, actually, I do not.

Laurie Edmundson:

Yeah, I'm like, I mean, you could go get a diet coke wherever you go get a drink, but like,

Sara Amundson:

literally so awkward. They bring it to you and like a children's cup.

Laurie Edmundson:

Well, that's what I mean, right? Like it. It shouldn't be awkward, because like, getting a drink could imply getting whatever the fuck you want, but like it doesn't, you know,

Sara Amundson:

I've done that only once. And I said to the lady, can I get a grapefruit with a lemon and a lime? And I specifically was like, no vodka, and she did like a double take. And I was like, I just want grapefruit juice with lemon and lime. Feel free to throw in some sparkling water. Please do not bring me vodka. And she was like, Okay, yeah. And she brought it back to me. And I was like, Jesus Christ. This guy has like a glass and I have like a plastic cup. Like,

Laurie Edmundson:

actually even for that. Yeah.

Sara Amundson:

Like, and I was like, God, does everybody need to know I'm a fucking drunk. Like, come on.

Laurie Edmundson:

Yeah, that sucks.

Sara Amundson:

And it's also it's like, Okay, well, I'm not gonna go on dates with someone who wants to go get six beers. Like, if you want to get a beer with dinner. Of course. Please, have fun, dude. Get to. But like, it's with dinner. Like, I'm not going on. I'm not meeting you at a bar. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's what dating is. Now is let's meet up at a bar.

Laurie Edmundson:

Yeah, totally. That's interesting. Like, do you think that at this point in your life, right. And of course, you're 60 days sober. So like, this is a very much like, fresh, fresh journey for you. But like, do you think that you could date somebody like long term that used alcohol?

Sara Amundson:

Yeah, I think if they're, if they're appropriate with it,

Laurie Edmundson:

right. Yeah.

Sara Amundson:

But if they're partying every weekend now. Yeah, I mean, if they drink alcohol every night now.

Laurie Edmundson:

Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't date somebody at 28 years old, but partied every weekend, either. I mean, that's just like, I couldn't I wouldn't do it. But yeah, I think it's interesting, because

Sara Amundson:

it would be easier if they're sober. But also, I think it's worth noting, if they're sober too, then the likelihood of us trauma bonding is higher. And I do not want to drama bond with someone.

Laurie Edmundson:

Yeah, and it's like, similar to I mean, I know you and I both love peanut butter. And I know that both you and I have problems with food or have had problems with food, so I can. I haven't we've never had this conversation, but I can guess that you have been a person that has said I can't have peanut butter in the house because I'll eat it

Sara Amundson:

10,000 times. Yeah. So I I've actually I've never I don't know what it's like to binge. I've never had a binge eating issue. I've never been on a binge. But I imagine if I were to ever develop some sort of binge eating issue, it would involve an entire jar of peanut butter.

Laurie Edmundson:

Yep, I have. I have a story that I'll just go into. Now while we're on it. You know Adam's peanut butter is not a thing in the state. Click the nut

Sara Amundson:

oil at the top and you mix it in. Yeah, a lot of work.

Laurie Edmundson:

It is way too much work. Yeah. But it's like a glass jar. And so I remember one time I was like in a binge and peanut butter It was my go to and I was living with my dad and like he would he would literally hide peanut butter like in his like sock drawer because

Sara Amundson:

Tory had the peanut butter for years in our house.

Laurie Edmundson:

Yeah, totally. And I've actually super proud of myself. I've had a jar of peanut butter in my house for like, six months. And I it's like barely used because I just like don't need to worry about it anymore. Anyway, I was at my dad's house and binge eating peanut butter and I dropped the jar, the like, Adam's peanut butter jar, and it shattered because it's glass, and I literally stood there bawling my eyes out going like, do I try it eat around the glass? What do I do? And I was just like, like weeping. It was crazy. Right? You know? So it's like, Do I have a substance use issue? No, but like, do I kind of get the vibe? 100% I almost say that. Why?

Sara Amundson:

I asked. That's why I asked if you're addicted to anything because my love of alcohol doesn't come close to my love of cigarettes. I mean, I love cigarettes 10 times more than I love boiling potato vodka, camel, menthol. Fucking like I've given you so much of my money sponsor us. Like what you said about me? Sir me. Like I use the every payday I would run up to the reservation, because that's where the cheapest cigarettes were and I would get a carton. Like I'd get a carton and they'd last me about eight and a half days. Then I'd start going to the gas station for a week and then we'd cycle back to the carton on paper.

Laurie Edmundson:

Do you still smoke cigarettes?

Sara Amundson:

Oh my god. No, the taste of it. Oh. Oh, the taste. Oh, this smell. Oh, but when I drive past someone smoking a cigarette? I literally think to myself, you fucking bitch. Like Fuck you. Like I get mad that I not smoking? Because truly there is nothing I love more in the world than to flip a pack of cigarettes over pack it rip off that fucking like cellophane label and hit the little crush to give it the extra menthol put it between your lips and the lighter. Oh becmi Oh, oh, it's it's just like it's pure euphoria. Dude, it is pure euphoria. Like there's nothing I love more.

Laurie Edmundson:

Hmm,

Sara Amundson:

I've never was was that not the most dramatic? Like? Like, I'm like, I can. I can feel it.

Laurie Edmundson:

Yeah, that's crazy. I've never smoked a cigarette my life. Never had the urge to but I do love the smell, which is super weird. So I'll stand next to smokers on purpose. Yeah, I

Sara Amundson:

had my first cigarette when I was 14. Damn, I was doing a lot of crazy shit at 14

Laurie Edmundson:

but you know what's weird? So the reason that I so I have this like really, really awful fear of throwing up like this, like legitimate phobia of throwing up and it took years to get over. Not over. I'm not over it. But like, anyway, very, very, very serious phobia about throwing up

Sara Amundson:

You better not get COVID

Laurie Edmundson:

you don't throw up with COVID

Sara Amundson:

Oh, I thought I was making a joke.

Laurie Edmundson:

No. I better not get COVID because I don't want to get COVID but you know. Anyway, I have this like intense fear of throwing up. And so legitimately no joke, this phobia of mine was a protective factor my whole life. Because what happens when you drink too much you throw up? What happens when you...

Sara Amundson:

develop a purging behavior?

Laurie Edmundson:

Yeah, well, to be fair, I yeah. We'll get into purging behaviors in eating disorders. I'm sorry. That's a whole other story. But um, ever they always say like, the first time you smoke a cigarette, you throw up the first time you do that. That's what they said when you were in high school.

Sara Amundson:

That's not what happens.

Laurie Edmundson:

Okay. Well, I don't know. But either way they those things I never did because of this fear of throwing up. Right. So it's like been this really weird, protective factor.

Sara Amundson:

That's an awesome protective factor.

Laurie Edmundson:

I mean, I'd love it without the anxiety, but you know, it's fine.

Sara Amundson:

Yeah. It's Yeah, it's still a good protective factor.

Laurie Edmundson:

Yeah, no, totally. I mean, like, it's just it's like an interesting one. Because it's like, it's Yeah, it's weird.

Sara Amundson:

I wasn't expecting us to make so many parallels between substance use and eating disorders, this is interesting.

Laurie Edmundson:

I mean, it's, it's an addiction. It is.

Sara Amundson:

It's totally an addiction.

Laurie Edmundson:

It's either an addiction, because you have a binge eating disorder or it's an addiction because you're addicted to control behavior of control.

Sara Amundson:

Because when I when I heard your story about her How do I get the peanut butter I remember, I was at stadium thriftway and Tacoma kind of headed toward us North Tacoma and I, the entire day, maybe like a shake in the morning. And it was before my 630 class, I'd ran like six miles on my lunch break. Like, every time I stood up, I see black, and like, almost pass out, I'd have to grip onto things whenever I would transition from like, seated to standing or laying to standing. And I went to stadiums in a way and I was like, I am so fucking hungry, I need something. And I went through that entire store, looking at the carbs and the calories, and I just started bawling. Like, I was like, I can't eat a sandwich. Because the even if I get one piece of bread, and they cut it in half for me, it's still gonna be like 80 calories. And I was just like, I'll take a piece of Carmel and sparkling water, and I just like was hysterically crying on my way to class. Just so addicted to the counting behavior. It was so scary. borderline personality disorder, so weird, dude.

Laurie Edmundson:

Yeah, I mean, eating disorders are fucking weird.

Sara Amundson:

So is substance use, but they're all tied together. It's like, of course, this weird web. That is our mental health. And it's like, the chicken and the egg and the spider web. What came first, but they're all interconnected and woven together. But I truly believe if you get to the root, which for me is the self hate if you can start to target the root. Everything else kind of comes with it.

Laurie Edmundson:

Yeah. And to me, it's just straight up emotion regulation. Like I think I'm just biologically wired to not be able to regulate my emotions.

Sara Amundson:

And food helps you regulate.

Laurie Edmundson:

Totally, yeah. And so does sodas counting behavior. So does exercising too much sodas, like all of those things? Yeah, regulate.

Sara Amundson:

That's interesting. Because I don't use alcohol to regulate, I use it to numb. I don't use food or lack of food to regulate, I use it to not mean, numb, control, shrink shift, make small? How many hundreds of ways can this disorder show up?

Laurie Edmundson:

I think it's 264. But that would be wrong. It's a lot.

Sara Amundson:

It's just so funny, because sometimes I feel like you and I are like a carbon copy of one another. And then in other ways, it's like God, we couldn't be more different.

Laurie Edmundson:

I know. It's so fascinating. And that's, I think, why I love people with BPD so much is because we always have something that connects us. But there's always something that is so unique about each of us. Because the uniqueness is like amplified because we're just like amplified as people, you know.

Sara Amundson:

Yeah, I just can't get down with the cats.

Laurie Edmundson:

You'll get there. That's what Aaron said, No, he's obsessed with Mr. Norris.

Sara Amundson:

I love you so much. I hope all of our listeners find this episode to be helpful in some way.

Laurie Edmundson:

I definitely want to make sure that people know that the stories that I talked about, are not being glorifying substance use. None of it sounded like that. I think sometimes our impulsivity stuff and our sex stuff like sometimes that can sound like glorifying just because we have to laugh about it, or else we'd cry. But I don't. I mean, I didn't take any of what you said about substance use as glorifying.

Sara Amundson:

Yeah, because I definitely know that the media glorifies it, like, you can laugh at funny drunk stories or whatever, but nothing is worth your health and safety and the health and safety of your community. Right? I mean, I have to live with the fact that I potentially put other people at risk in my drinking and driving. Thank God nothing ever happened to them. Thank God nothing ever happened to me that we will have. Yeah, totally. For everyone listening, we're gonna have a ton of substance use resources in the show notes. So give that a go. And don't forget if you if you are in DBT, and at least in the States, a lot of programs will have substance use and Ed related groups so give those a go as well if that speaks to you, but Lori and I are going to record a full eating disorder episode and maybe since we have this one today, Laurie, whenever this goes live, maybe we should just try to have the eating disorder episode follow.

Laurie Edmundson:

Yeah, I guess I have to get ready for that. I'm like, literally, that's the one episode I'm the most worried about record.

Sara Amundson:

Okay, so I scratch that everybody we're gonna meet. We're gonna meet Laurie where she's at, and we're not going to do that.

Laurie Edmundson:

Well, we could, we'll just have it's gonna be a tough one for me. So good luck everybody listening to that, but I'm not hiding anything. I'm you know me, I'll share everything I just that is the one part of this experience that I'm not over. Yeah. Which is fine. That's, um, there's no problem with that. It's just like that one makes me the most uncomfortable to talk about.

Sara Amundson:

Yeah. Well, everyone, we love you so much. We don't know what episode will come next. But thank you so much for listening and following this sobriety journey with me if you all have been listening to episodes from the very beginning, you've heard me off and on in the sober stuff. So here I am. 60 days honestly wouldn't be able to do this without my sweet little love Laurie who's just so cute. If you guys could see her with her giant like Beats headphones that are like as big as her face, they look like ear muffs or something. She's so cute. I can't even look at her.

Laurie Edmundson:

Right back at you when you're broken nose. So cute.

Sara Amundson:

Hi, friends. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the bold, beautiful borderline podcast. Lori and I are so grateful that you're here with us on this journey. And we can't wait to dive into more topics in the future with you all about borderline, and even have some more fun and exciting guests to join us on the podcast. If you really enjoyed this episode, we would love if you would rate review and subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. We would also love to see you interact with us on social media and on our Patreon page, the links to that are included in the show notes. So check us out there. We would be incredibly honored to get to know you all as you get to know us and our recovery stories. We love you and we'll see you next time.