Not Coming Out Yet Is Okay Too (Guest: Alex)

Guest to the podcast Alex shares his experiences living with BPD as a man working in a male dominated, stigma ridden field of work. He shares his reasons for not coming out with his diagnosis yet, his journey to recovery, philosophy for treatment, and the most important skill in his life. 

Apologies for the audio quality, we are trying our best. 

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Transcript

Laurie Edmundson: 0:00

Hi, everybody, and welcome to the bold, beautiful borderline podcast. My name is Laurie and I am here with our special guest, Alex, who's going to be talking about his experience with BPD. And the challenges that he faces when it comes when it comes to coming out with the disorder. So Alex, tell us a bit about yourself.

Alex: 0:20

Yes, so my name is Alex, I have a Bachelor of Science from SFU, I've traveled around the orld, I live in Vancouver with y fiance. And I have a really ood life right now. But things ave not always been that way. I ave borderline personality isorder. And there were some arly warning signs when I was a id. But I was not actually iagnosed until I was 20 years ld, during a stay in a ospital. So I'm coming on the odcast to talk about my xperience, and what we can all earn from learning about other eople's experiences.

Laurie Edmundson: 0:51

Thank you so much. And Alex and I know each other because we've both been d ing a lot of mental health ad ocacy around Vancouver and B itish Columbia, obviously, COVI kind of put a little bi of a challenge on that we h ven't been able to do as m ny in person things. But we wer both involved in a similar p oject years ago. So it's super n ce to see you again. And one f the things that we are eally interested in hearing fr m you is what it means to you t have borderline personality dis rder, and be male, because obv ously most people diagnose with borderline are women. An that that's probably beca se of diagnostic criteria ssues rather than people, m n not having as much challen es in terms of the symptoms t at we experience. But just curi us as to what that has meant t you. Have you experienced extra stigma? Was it harder t find people that you can rela

Alex: 1:40

Yeah, so it has been tough. I always like to look at challenges as relative. So relative to my life, it's been tough, I can't see what borderline is like as a woman, because I'm not one. So I'm not sure if it'd be hard as a male or not. But one thing that was really hard for me was the fact that there's no men that have it. So yeah, I almost felt like it was sort of a at the time when I got diagnosed, it was like a feminine thing. And reading all this stuff online about all the women's blogs and things it was it was hard to read that and especially going to group therapy, when it was all women, I was always the only guy in group therapy, regardless if it was nonprofit, or if I paid for it, there just be there, I'd be the only man in there. And we'd all be experiencing the similar problems. And it's good to connect with people. But I can never, I've never connected with someone who's a guy who has it, who has had the similar struggles that I've had. And that's been obviously really tough. And we'll talk about this later in the podcast. But I work in a business environment, where mental health is not something that's talked about and often pushed under the rug. And for that reason, I haven't come out publicly that I have borderline personality disorder. Now I did do public speaking on it. But I don't tell anyone that I have it because it's viewed as a weakness. And in a business sense, it almost makes sense that it is a weakness, and I can understand why people are very critical of it that I work with. And I've been able over the years to figure out, you know, the reasons why they don't want to hire someone who would have well in precise order. So I kind of pushed under the rug. And that's, that's been really hard. So I being a man and having it is hard. But what's tougher is what I'm passionate about in terms of what I want to do with my career and how it's not kind of recognized yet. And hopefully in the future, it will be at this point in my career, I'm so at the bottom of the ladder. So I don't really have a voice I hope one day when I move up the ladder a little bit that I'll be able to voice my challenges and hopefully inspire other people who have similar issues to come out and be comfortable doing. So. Yeah.

Laurie Edmundson: 3:48

And I know that Alex and I were talking a couple of days ago, just before he was coming on to the podcast about the fact that he knows that I'm very much like, everybody should be as open as they can about having this diagnosis. And like that's how we're going to help stigma, that kind of thing. And I totally get that that's not for everyone. And so I think that your perspective is really helpful and that you're kind of in a way dealing with this on your own right. Like in terms of friends and awareness and that kind of thing. Does your fiance know that you have the diagnosis?

Alex: 4:16

Oh, yeah, no, yeah, there's a couple people that are close to my life. And that's been very important for me is to tell a couple people, but a lot of my friends don't know, they don't know anything about my mental health problems, because I just don't want to get out there. At this point. I'll tell people eventually, and I hope they don't think I've just been lying to them. But you know what, that's the risk I've been willing to take. And so far, it's worked out in my favor, in terms of in terms of recovery, because part of recovery is feeling like you have a normal life and right now I do feel like I have a normal life. I feel like I have a normal normal job and I have a fiance and if I come out as born precise, what I'm not sure if all those things that have been together, but it's very important for me, especially my fiance But I told her almost right away when we start dating that this was an issue. And if you if you can't handle it, I have no problem with you leaving because it is it is it does cause challenges that let's say a regular relationship wouldn't necessarily face. Yeah, relationships can be up and down just on personality disorder.

Laurie Edmundson: 5:18

Yeah, I think it's so important that our part like romantic partners know and I think like some of our close friends as well, just because otherwise they just they don't get where you're coming from. And I think for me, that's where getting the diagnosis was so helpful was that it really taught me like, Okay, well, I'm not just overreacting, it's because I have, like, serious emotional dysregulation, right? And so, if people don't know that, then it's, it's a problem for sure.

Alex: 5:44

Yeah. And I've, I found out in the past, even with my family, before I was diagnosed, once I got diagnosed, it was kind of like, okay, everything kind of makes sense now. But before that, you know, when someone acts radically towards you, you automatically assume that they're just being a baby, or, you know, sulking, I'm just remembering the words that people used to call me because of the way I was acting or being immature, when really, it's your brain is just not functioning to it's 100% capacity emotionally. And so that's, that's why it's important. And it's also important that I can talk to people about it when I'm feeling dysregulated. So I have a couple friends, I can call them be like, Listen, man, like, I'm really not having a good day. And they'll they'll chat with me. And they kind of get it. They don't fully get it. But they've done their own research. And they've kind of talked me down sometimes, which is great. That's really helpful for them to deal with it all alone.

Laurie Edmundson: 6:37

Yeah, I have a friend that one time she said, Sometimes she would Google like, if if I acted in a certain way she would Google like is blank, a symptom of borderline personality disorder, just because she was trying to figure out if it was like, me just being a bitch, or if it was like, because of having BPD, or whatever. And she was kind of nervous to tell me that. And I said, You know what, that's actually one of the best things that you could possibly do is like, you trying to learn about this disorder? And trying to learn about why I act the way I am? I'm totally fine with that. And I hope I think that my friends know that they can ask me questions about my experience and what I'm feeling nowadays. But when I was diagnosed, eight years ago, or whatever it was, it wasn't as easy for people to kind of ask questions, right? Yeah.

Alex: 7:21

I always always been very open to people ask questions. I'll add some as honestly as I can. And yeah. And there's no problem right with asking and trying to understand with what's going on, I think it's great that people are trying to understand, because it's kind of a foreign concept to a lot of people, you know, we grew up in Canada, which is arguably one of the best places in the world. And where I'm from Vancouver, which is arguably one of the best places in Canada, like, how could you be How could you be feeling like this, this doesn't make sense, right. And if you don't understand that something going on in your brain that you were born with that happened, as a result, the environment you grew up in some instability. A lot of people don't can't really wrap their heads around why you'd be acting this way and such a great place to live.

Laurie Edmundson: 8:04

Yeah. And I know that that's part one of a dialectical behavior therapy skills is comparing yourself to others. And I don't necessarily like that skill personally. But it is one of those things where sometimes when you compare yourself to others, it can make yourself feel better, but it also can make yourself feel a lot worse, because you're like, I'm, you know, I have a house, I have food, I have money, like, how could I possibly feel like this? And you're right, it's, it's not because you're weak? Or you're being a princess or whatever, whatever you want to call it. It's just because yeah, you're you have trauma in your and your brain is functioning in a different way.

Alex: 8:39

Yeah, I think that um, social media and LinkedIn, for me, LinkedIn is my biggest advice, because I got off Instagram and Facebook for the most part, other than to message people, because I found myself comparing myself to everyone. But now I'm on LinkedIn, because of my job. And I do the same thing on LinkedIn, we're versus comparing careers. I think LinkedIn is more of like men comparing to each other interested in, like, how can you be my age and have this much experience or work here and do this, and I just can feel it my stomach. So I actually, I delete it from time to time when I'm not actually reaching out to people and talking to people on there.

Laurie Edmundson: 9:16

That's so funny, because I like I have LinkedIn and I, I basically don't use it, like I always update it if I get a new job or whatever. But that's mostly so that when I write a resume, I can just go to LinkedIn, and I know what the dates are, because I'm so terrible at remembering that stuff. But

Alex: 9:30

yeah, just imagine someone that's your age, who's maybe if they were a bit delay going to university because they had these issues, and they look at your LinkedIn and you're the same age, you have the same disorder, but look how much experience you've had. Look what you've done, you know, that's what, that's what happens to me.

Laurie Edmundson: 9:48

Yeah, that's fair. I think honestly. I mean, this might sound like super full of myself, but like, I'm probably one of the people that has more experience than most people in terms of career. Why is at my age? So like, maybe I just don't know. Like, I just don't notice. But yeah, I mean, like education and stuff. There's people I'm like, how are you a doctor already, like people I went to high school with? They're like lawyers and doctors and stuff. Oh, holy crap. That's, that's life. Yeah, exactly. So when it comes to your work, and I know, we're not going to go into details about your work, but you're worried that people are going to judge you, and that you're potentially not going to be hired because you are open about your diagnosis and that kind of thing, which is fair. Do people at your workplace? Do you think they actually know what borderline personality disorder is? Or do you think that they just wouldn't hire you because you have a mental illness.

Alex: 10:38

So my work is not just where we're at. But it's kind of a broad spectrum, because of all the I work in real estate development. And it's all interconnected. So everyone kind of knows everyone. And from what I've seen, I don't think people would maybe they know what borderline personality disorder is a disorder. But it's such an intensive career, that people don't really have time, honestly, to focus on things that don't directly involve them. That's not them being all about themselves. But just one mistake can completely derail a project and lose not only you, but investors tons of money. So it's very important to be very focused on what you need to know, which is building structures and the financing surrounding that. So I don't think they do. And there's a lot of, there's a lot of jokes about mental health. And, you know, snowflakes, and, you know, people these days are so weak and that kind of thing, which, you know, I can see where these people are coming from, because what I like to do is instead of directly getting offended by what people say, I always try to look at through their eyes, like what what they see and always see, like, like people have no experience whatsoever with mental health. They're young, they don't have kids that potentially have issues or friends that have issues, and they just don't know, and I'm not coming out for a good, I think it's a good reason, because people would view me differently. I know 100%, they would. And any sort of mental weakness is not viewed Well, in any sort of business environment, because the overall objective is to make as much money as you can, right? And if there's a chance that I'm going to think I'm going to be derailed for even like a day, and screw something up, then I can totally understand what I wouldn't want to hire me or wouldn't want to work with me. Like, I don't know what I do. Like, when you I have a question for you more like if you're investing your money, like you, you have a job, if you invest your money, and you have two people, two banks they're gonna invest with, and you know, one of them spent the last five years spent at least a year in and out of a psychiatric unit, that you got to really think Are you really gonna put your money with that person? Right. And that's the problem. That's the problem. Right? So that's what I think. And that's why I won't come out yet. I, I hope to come out one day, when I'm more established, and I'm more of a reputation. But right now, I don't.

Laurie Edmundson: 12:56

Yeah, well, and the nice thing is, is that when you do come out in the future, you're going to be able to say hey, look, I have borderline personality disorder, and they're gonna go, oh, holy, he's like, at the top of his field, he's awesome. Like, clearly, clearly, this is not a huge problem in a workplace. And then hopefully, you'll be able to kind of inspire others to either come out, or people in that have mental illnesses and borderline to go into that field in the first place. Yeah,

Alex: 13:22

that's, that's, that's what I'm hoping because most, most fields don't really mental illness won't restrict you. They'll just restrict what people think about you, as long as you're following good treatment plan, and that you're taking care of yourself and not letting yourself get derailed. I mean, doing everything in your power to make sure you don't get derailed. I personally think is in the in the past, I've been without self help, or going to counseling or taking medication, I'm just off the charts, just what you call completely crazy, like no hope going to be homeless type of thing. And then once I actually got the help I needed, everything just kind of started lining up. But it was a lot of work. But things have kind of lined up now where I'm, I'm functioning every day, completely fine.

Laurie Edmundson: 14:06

Yeah, that's awesome. And so I do want to talk about your recovery a little bit in a second. But I do want to just go back and say it's interesting, because you had said that you're you don't think that people that you work with, you know, have mental illness or that they have people in their lives that have mental illness, whereas statistically speaking, they probably do, right, like one in five, one in four, whatever stat you want to use, like has mental illness, it may not be borderline to you. I'm sure that you knows I'm sure there's somebody in your field has borderline as well and, and hasn't come out either.

Alex: 14:41

They might not even know because some people are just super hot headed. And you just think oh, that guy is just super intense and just loses his mind. Right? Yes, really passionate about things and then something doesn't go his way just blows up. And maybe they don't even know because there's suspicion that my grandfather who passed like four years ago had borderline personality disorder as well. Yeah, quite possibly we just lose it for no reason at anybody.

Laurie Edmundson: 15:08

Yeah. And I mean, it is genetic in some ways. Like, I mean, it's not fully genetic. But, you know, I would not be surprised at all if your grandfather had a diagnosis.

Alex: 15:17

Yeah, that's interesting to say. And then I don't they don't know me either, right. They don't think they probably wouldn't see me working and think, oh, that guy's off the charts like he's, he's completely mentally ill they think I'm fine, but I'm not. So yeah, I don't I don't know about them. It's, it's a weird game. It's a weird game that everyone plays. And y'all put on your suits, and you show up smiling. And then you go home and change one day? Yeah. But with business, it's always been more delayed than the rest of society with everything from different races, diversity, women, there's still a huge problem with women not being in the workplace, the same as men and getting promoted the same. And it's 2020. You know, right. So I think that things just move slower. And it'll, it'll become the norm eventually. But right now, I'm just, I'm just not comfortable putting myself out there. I just, I just don't want I've worked so hard to get to where I am. I don't want to get derailed because it's something that I can control.

Laurie Edmundson: 16:18

Yeah, and I and again, that's one of the reasons that I'm so excited to have you on here is just, that's okay. Right. Like I the last, the last thing I want is for people to listen to this podcast and be like, Oh, my God, Lori's always preaching that we need to come out about our mental illness and whatever. And if they don't feel comfortable with that, I don't want anybody to feel shame or guilt or anything. I mean, coming out, I came out probably seven or eight years ago, it was like scariest shit. Like, it was terrifying. But I just I had to make a conscious decision where I said, if people don't want to work with me, because I have this disorder, then I don't want to work with them. But not everybody's in a position where they can make that decision. I mean, Sarah is has borderline personality disorder. And she hadn't come out publicly until she met me. And I said, Oh, my God, you haven't come out publicly yet. And then a month later, we started this podcast. So I mean, she she's a, she's a social worker, a counselor. And she runs her own business. And she had the same fear. Like, what if people don't hire me? What if people don't want me to do contracts for them? What What do I need to be their counselor? Like? It's, it's a totally legitimate fear. And I definitely hope that one day we can move to a place where we don't have to be fearful of having mental health issues. But I realized that that's not the case right now.

Alex: 17:31

Yeah, and one thing I think is very important, too, with that is that people like as technology evolves, that will be a little better treatment plans for people with different mental health issues, and that people with mental health issues take the treatment very seriously. One thing I always found when I was public speaking, that I would always say, and I always, I always caught a bit of flack for this, but it worked for me was people will say, Oh, well, people with cancer, you know, everyone cares about them. But mental health issues, they don't care as much, but it's the same thing, right? It's something horrible that can destroy your life and kill you. And when I was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, I decided to treat it like I had cancer. So I have a friend who has cancer, and he does chemotherapy, and it wipes them out for eight hours a day. Why does it chemotherapy, so that was the kind of plan I needed to beat. What was going on with me, and I took it that seriously, like it was gonna kill me. Like it was cancer. And I had to do everything the doctor said all the time. And that's just, that's what worked for me. And I think that a lot of people do that. And if you can come out saying, This is what I did. And I take it seriously, just like any other illness, then people will, I think they'll accept it more and understand that you're really doing everything you can to keep it under control.

Laurie Edmundson: 18:48

Yeah, and I mean, nobody. People often go like, Oh, well, counsel, I don't like going to counseling. Dude. Nobody likes going to counseling, going to counseling sucks, like going to counseling is where you're working on some of the hardest stuff in your life. They don't have the opportunity to talk to anybody else about and you're gonna have amazing sessions, and you're gonna have sessions that like you just said, wipe you out for eight hours. Oh, yeah. And, and that's healing, right? Like,

Alex: 19:13

that's, that's what it is. When I did cognitive behavior therapy, they would trigger a panic attack in me, this lady I worked with Ana, she did it. She's some sort of magician, she would trigger a panic attack and be like, on the spot, twice a week for six months. And that's, that's not easy to do, especially if you're taking the bus down there. And you know, you're going to be melting down like 15 minutes, and then five minutes, you walk in, you know what's going to happen. And you almost get a panic attack, like walking in there. But that's what needed to happen. And it was my treatment plan was, there was about two years before I really started noticing a big difference. And honestly, it was horrible. It was so hard, but it's what I had to do and and you're alive being worth it. I yeah, I'm really glad. that it worked. Because it was really hard. Yeah, it costs a lot of money and a lot of time that I could have spent doing other things.

Laurie Edmundson: 20:09

So you said that you went to public and private. So did you go to the DBT? center for a bit?

Alex: 20:14

Yes. I've been at the DBT Center. But I went to when La ner too

Laurie Edmundson: 20:20

Okay, like through like Delta public hea th or Delta mental health

Unknown: 20:23

Yeah, yeah, but also went to private people there as well. I found I'm very particular with counselors, and I'm kind of different than a lot of people. I don't like counselors who tell me it's gonna be okay. I want someone to throw me right into the fire and tell me everything I'm doing wrong and how to fix it. Because to me, it was like I said, I treat it like cancer. And I have to get rid of it. Because it's destroying my life. It's destroying all the relationships I've ever had. You know, I can't tell you how many friends and girlfriends I mean, I'm happily engaged now. So I'm glad those worked out. But I had to treat it like, yeah, it was cancer. So I, I would I have one counselor that I still see sometimes. And, you know, we discuss things and he'll tell me I'm being an idiot, or I'm being completely irrational. That's kind of the deal we've made. So I found that in nonprofits and public sector, those kind of personalities weren't as abundant. Whereas private and private sector, you can really kind of pick and choose who you want. It's just really expensive, which is really hard.

Laurie Edmundson: 21:21

Yeah, it's honestly, counseling is so crazy expensive. And I don't know if you have benefits through work, but like, I work at a health authority, and I have benefits. And I get I think it's either 300 or $500 a year for counseling. My counselor cost$150 an hour. I love her to bits. I don't want to leave her but that's not like, that's three sessions.

Alex: 21:43

I know. Yeah. Yeah. Mine's more expensive than that. And I mostly paid out of pocket, honestly. Yeah. But it was worth it. Right. Like, like it was it was hard, but it was totally worth it. And, yeah, that's kind of talking about the treatment that I took, like, what the plan was,

Laurie Edmundson: 22:02

yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Okay, so

Alex: 22:04

when I got diagnosed, I had been going to cognitive behavior therapy, but not taking it seriously. So kind of like my background was, I started having issues when I was a little kid, like my parents want to take me to a psychiatrist in grade four, they started talking about it, but I never ended up going to one unfortunately. And then throughout high school, I had tons of problems, like many people with borderline personality disorder do and as a man, or as a as a teenage boy, my boy line came out is very angry and violent and volatile, which is dangerous, right? So people were very wary of me. And my even my parents didn't want to say something that would that would piss me off because I'm, by the time I was 16, I was six foot two, and about 200 pounds. And I was very, very angry all the time. And using lots of drugs hanging out with really bad people, all the whole story. And I ended up getting in legal trouble. It was actually you know what it was about? Eight years ago, or no, nine years ago, literally, I was in a psychiatric unit today, so I end up getting in trouble. And I had a counselor who you would actually know I won't name her on here. Yeah,

Laurie Edmundson: 23:12

I know who it is.

Alex: 23:13

Yeah. She She suggested that I checked myself into a hospital. Because I was acting irrational. I thought that was the craziest thing I've ever heard. I thought I was normal. Right? I thought that like everyone was just pissing me off. And I was born to be this tough guy. So I actually ended up doing it. My mom had to kind of talk me into it. And then that's when I realized I had a problem. Because when I was able to finally able to relax and chill out, take some medication sit there for a bit, I realized that like, okay, something's wrong with me. And I actually just got diagnosed with anxiety and impulsivity is strange as that sounds, that's borderline personality disorder, but they just called it. He has impulse control issues. And things were good until, until I was 19. And things just derailed again, I had an old friend got shot and killed by the police. And it just kind of threw me off the edge like I was barely hanging on. I just threw me off the edge. And that year, I was in and out of the hospital like 16 times and like police have to pick me up and it was horrible. And I got diagnosed with everything under the sun, bipolar, PTSD, tons of stuff, but the one I end up sticking was borderline personality disorder. I had a great doctor that recognized like past problems and looked at my life as a whole spectrum of sort of what was just going on right now. And then once we got diagnosed, I got diagnosed with borderline, then I was able to research it Okay, and figure out okay, this actually makes sense. And then start the treatment program, which was cognitive behavioral therapy. And cognitive behavioral therapy was only done just so I can sit in DBT because I get so mad. Whe they try and say that som thing I said or thought was't rational. I'll get so ups t that I couldn't even I cou d even sit in the chair. the apy. And I am doing this thi g called rapid eye movement. Hav you heard of that?

Laurie Edmundson: 25:05

Oh, EMDR. Right. Yeah. Yeah. How was that ?

Alex: 25:11

Well, that was crazy. But it worked. Um, my psychiatrist told me it was complete bullshit, and then I'm wasting my money. And I spent 1000s on this guy who did it, and it completely changed my life. But I couldn't have done it without having done the other therapies before.

Laurie Edmundson: 25:28

Because it was so intense. It's a really popular modality right now I know that my counselor, obviously we're going virtual right now. But she does EMDR. And I haven't done it with her because that's I haven't I didn't really believe in it at first. But I mean, from what I've heard, it's like incredible, because you don't have to talk about the traumas that you're experiencing. Right? It's just like rewiring your brain through moving your eyes.

Alex: 25:52

Yeah, but to do it, they had to bring me back to the trauma like 20 times, okay. And it was just brutal. I couldn't even drive home. My brother had to pick me up. Like I couldn't even It was so hard. But it ended up working. I don't know how the guy did it. I still don't understand how it works. But it was it felt like I was being hypnotized to. To like not even care. It feels like the tragic incident that we were dealing with. It almost feels like a newspaper article that I was reading it. That was kind of how he hypnotized me. I call it hypnotized because I just I can't even understand how it works. Yeah, because it was so real. And it happened. It was so horrible. And it ruined so many years of my life. And then to go that therapy and that just feels like a newspaper article. is it's just I can't I can't believe it.

Laurie Edmundson: 26:41

That's really interesting. Yeah. So did you do so you did cognitive behavioral therapy? Then you did? EMDR. And then you did dialectical behavior therapy. DBT. Before EMDR? Okay, I was the last one. And then throughout that I was seeing a private counselor to

Alex: 26:57

basically just tell me everything I'm doing wrong, and how to fix it. So did

Laurie Edmundson: 27:02

tell me about your experience in DBT. Because I credit DBT for saving my life. And I know I saw in my group, there was one man as well, and I have an eye or self talk. And I'm sure that that was really hard for him. It can't be easy to sit in a room full of like, 15 women that are super emotional.

Unknown: 27:22

Yeah. I just mostly kept my mouth shut and just listened.

Laurie Edmundson: 27:26

Yeah, but you found it helpful even a that

Unknown: 27:29

Yeah, it was very helpful. But I had to take myself You have to sacrifice your pride, you know, and think, okay, like, I'm just a person, it doesn't matter if you're male or female. Like, I think, oh, man, like there's so many women in here. And it's it's weird being a man, because I'm obviously young or younger than now. And I was working out a lot. So it's pretty fit. And part of BPD is like sex impulse control. And yeah, while these girls be hitting on me, like after, and it was, it was I had a I had a girlfriend at the time. And that was a really hard part is I'm there to get help. I'm not there to make friends. And yeah, I had some very inappropriate things that were said to me, like almost every week by different people, like after the session or before the session. And that was honestly what I found the hardest.

Laurie Edmundson: 28:19

That's super interesting that like, because the one guy in my group is also pretty hot. I have to admit, he I'm sure he knows. I know that. I think that but I mean, also him and I were similar ages, and everybody else was way older than us. So I'm sure he didn't experience that as much. But we were in the public system. So I don't know if the DBT center would have like, put people that are similar ages together or not. Iactually don't know.

Unknown: 28:47

Okay, yeah, that's what I actually found the hardest and it's so weird even talking about that. Makes sense, though, because that's a strange. I totally like that's what I really understood, like, women's perspective, like being in a workplace getting harassed. Because it was so uncomfortable. Like, I can't even explain you're uncomfortable felt like knowing when I went there, okay, like, something's probably gonna happen. Someone's gonna look at me. Like it's, and they're gonna say something that's gonna be super weird. I gotta deflect it. Yeah, I mean, one there.

Laurie Edmundson: 29:17

That's some good understanding of what it's like to walk in somebody else's shoes, right? Like, yeah, that's all like, It's awful. You had to go through that. But

Alex: 29:25

yeah, but but I didn't even have to worry about physical violence, right, I have to worry about someone actually grabbing me because I could just throw them off. That was the part that I found hard. Another part that I found hard, being the only guy was just when you share like your experiences, like they're all completely different than me. None of them know. None of them had the same experiences as me. Right, but they all had similar experiences to each other. So felt kind of isolating. But once again, I said to remember why I'm there. Having the right mindset was very important for me, I talked about it a lot. It's just you got to remember why you're there and what you're actually doing. Look at it like that. In a five year plan rather than just tomorrow, I know a lot of people say like, you want to get to the next day, but I always look for something like I always think like, okay, in five years, like where I'm sitting right now, I'm gonna be great. Everything's gonna be fine. That didn't work out that way, which is awesome.

Laurie Edmundson: 30:14

Yeah, I mean, I remember people would make fun of me because I you get homework when you go to dialectical behavior therapy. And I would come in, and I would have done my homework every single week good. And, and I remember it was literally like a running joke in my group, because I was the I think I was the only person that did it every single week, I did it completely. And I took it really seriously. And I think that that's why I was able to recover so well, is because I just like did not fuck around. This was school. To me, this was life or death. And I know this work.

Alex: 30:47

What I say when I'm publicly speaking, is that if you want people to take your mental health, seriously, you take it seriously. And that's hard to hear for a lot of people because they think they're taking it seriously. But if you devote all your energy to fixing it, like chances are, you're gonna get a little bit better, you might not get fully better, some people never fully recover, but you're gonna get a little bit better. And then you can get a little bit better than that. And you can keep working on it. And if I'm paying 100 if you're paying 150 bucks to see a counselor for an hour, like you better be doing the homework. Yeah, just totally leaving that money. Yeah, that's why I've said that I don't like the feel good counselors. I know a lot of people will say, like, my fiance hates when I say that. But I want someone who's gonna like really dive into my brain, figure out what's going on, and get the most out of that hour. So the neck the whole week, I can figure out, you know, work on what he says to work on and really try and notice things that are that are triggering me. And that's another thing I think we should talk about. I know you're interviewing, sorry, but no. Like, recognizing triggers has been very important for me. So certain things. Get me going and recognizing when I can feel myself getting going, and then I call evacuating myself rejecting from the situation that they use cause problems with relationships, because I literally just get up and leave. Like, I don't say anything like I'm out of here. Because I need I need five minutes to cool off. I'm gonna explode.

Laurie Edmundson: 32:11

Yeah, but that's, that's amazing. Right? Like, yes, I totally see why for a partner that would be like, Where are you going? Like, you can't just leave this argument right now. But like, the fact that you can leave that argument from somebody who gets what that feels like to be like imminently exploding. Yeah, that's the hugest thing you can possibly do. I always say like, even if you can count to five, your impulsivity will shrink so quickly, if you can just take any break between guess your emotion and your action.

Alex: 32:40

with anything where you're angry, even if you don't have borderline personality disorder, it's so important. Yeah, take a break. And really figure out why you're so angry in the in the in the field I work in, there's a saying that if you're really mad at someone, wait 24 hours before clicking send on that email, Oh, God, total email might destroy your life. People who have lost their whole career in one email. Yeah. And when you're at work, when you're logged in the office was I was feeling heated, I would just go to the bathroom. sounds so weird, but I just sit in the stall, and just breathe and stare at the wall be so mad, so mad, and so anxious, and then just chill before going back out there and then dealing with what was going on? Yeah, it's very important, I think that you've put yourself in situation because that's when you're angry and impulsive. That's when you do the most damage, you can spend 99.9% of your life, beating yourself up, gain that trust for that significant other. But if you explode and push them or something in a fit of rage, it all goes down the drain. and avoiding those is very important. I think for me.

Laurie Edmundson: 33:44

So is that the number one skill that you have? Or like Are there other skills in DBT that you would consider your favorite skills are most useful?

Alex: 33:53

Yes. So my favorite skill is obviously evacuating, getting out of a situation. And then D regulating. Breathing is very important for me. And one of the most important things in DBT that I liked was in the beginning when they'd have five minutes to just breathing. Yeah. Right. And then you can really just relax. And for me like healthy coping mechanisms, such as coloring things just to get my mind off things. It's really important. So I'm really taken away and then other things I might do subconsciously I don't even know cuz that's the great thing about DBT is all of a sudden you just start doing things you don't even recognize you're doing them.

Laurie Edmundson: 34:29

And that's the thing, right is like people go How do you remember all the skills? And it's, it's, I don't, to be perfectly honest. I just I've practiced them so many times over the last five years, 10 years, whatever, that they just come naturally. So I don't know if you saw on Instagram. I don't know when you deleted Instagram, but I was doing that DBT skills a day thing?

Alex: 34:50

Yeah I remember you doin

Laurie Edmundson: 34:51

Yeah. And like I was so I was going through all the skills and there were some that I had completely forgotten about. And I was like, Huh, well the nice thing is is that I already do this Or your sometimes it was like, Oh, I don't do this. So clearly at the time, I didn't need that skill, but now maybe it would be really helpful. And so even just like a refresher is handy.

Alex: 35:09

Yeah, it's like I'm a, I used to do boxing before COVID was one of my things I've done my whole life. And I just know what to do when I go on the ring, without even knowing, because I've practiced so many times that I can see someone's shoulder move, and I know right away, it's gonna throw right hand, I know exactly he's gonna do before he even knows what he's gonna do. And that's kind of same as I've always thought that's the same as DVT is you just have to drill them in your head. So many times, it's so annoying, and it hurts so bad. But then eventually, you'll just know what to do when there's a situation. And another important part is if you screw up not to hold yourself too accountable, but I always like to apologize to anyone who I hurt during the outburst. And I know that it's like people like to say, Oh, well, I'm mentally ill, and this is part of my illness. But I almost don't like to do that. Because I don't like to give myself even the excuse that that's okay behavior, because in my mind, it's not. And I feel so shamed when I'm ashamed. When I when I lash out at people.

Laurie Edmundson: 36:11

I saw this thing the other day that said, borderline personality disorder is not an excuse. It's an explanation. Yes, I was like, Oh, my God, that's exactly what it is.

Alex: 36:21

But I think for people that haven't really fully grasp that they have borderline, they use it as kind of an excuse. And it sounds mean. I mean, you got to watch out who you say that to especially. I know, we talked one time, but someone that I knew who I suspected had it. And they would have loved if he said that? Oh, well, he did. But yeah, that's that's the tough part is really grasping that you have this disorder, and that you can work on it. There's no cure for it. At this moment. Maybe there will be one day, but right now it's it's relatively new scientifically. As far as I'm aware. That's what they told me when I was diagnosed. They're still learning about it. Yeah, I

Laurie Edmundson: 36:59

mean, I think so. There's no cure, as in there's no like magic pill you can take to get rid of Yeah, we're borderline personality sorter. But I mean, dialectical behavior therapy is significantly, there is so much research to show that you can recover from borderline personality disorder now and 20 years ago, that was not the case. And I mean, I don't I think that I will probably always identify as someone who lives with borderline personality. But I definitely don't identify as somebody whose life is going to be destroyed by borderline personality sorter. I think that at this point, it's made my life better. And it gives me purpose and passion and all of these things. Yeah.

Alex: 37:36

Yeah, we have to take the positive from everything, even the worst situations, there's always something right, that comes out of it. And for me, what's come out of it is being able to talk publicly about it, help other people. And it's also made me like, like, part of this is part of borderline is you get really energized about things. And I get energized by things and it can help me think more clearly. Sometimes it can, I can really get into an intense rhythm. Sometimes the impulsivity helps you pick up the phone and make that phone call. I don't want to make

Laurie Edmundson: 38:08

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, impulsive. We have a whole episode that came out a couple weeks ago, that was about impulsivity. And it was like, there's some really great pieces of impulsivity, right? Like impulsive is fun. It's exciting. It's just you need to be able to realize that like it can also destroy your life. You need to find the balance between the two.

Alex: 38:27

Yeah, that's that's, that's important. And part of that was for me, that I really had to realize was like intense things I was almost addicted to because when I stopped doing drugs, I was always chasing that adrenaline rush that you get when you get because almost I don't know if you agree with this, but Does it almost feel good for you when you get really mad? Like in the moment? Yeah. 100% and then after it's like, oh, you destroyed everything. But yeah, but as soon as like that rush, calm, so I always chase that rush. Like, I go to nightclubs with the live music. And part of my recovery too, is just staying away from those until I was good. So I

Laurie Edmundson: 39:02

like learning how to cope without that chaos. Almost.

Alex: 39:05

Yeah, yeah. Even even in headphones, like ISIS, listen to heavy EDM, like just crazy. I could feel it like I get going. That was that was one of the that was one of the things that the counselors really helped me with was recognizing where I seek to feel heated was what what they said where you feel when you feel hot.

Laurie Edmundson: 39:24

That's it right seek to feel heated. I like that. I know, in my current relationship, obviously, like I'm happily engaged as well. And my partner is very calm and patient. And there are times where I'm like, just yell at me like, I just need to fight like I we've been together for almost four years. I've never fought with him ever. And like I used to get in relationships where I would like just yell and scream and I hate you and I like you're the worst person I've ever met. And he doesn't engage in that type of argument. And sometimes it's so frustrating because I'm just like, I end up chaos every once in a while. Obviously good in the long run. Don't get me wrong, but I definitely like the chaos sometimes.

Alex: 40:08

Did you ever find that you dated people that probably had borderline personality disorder as well?

Laurie Edmundson: 40:14

I've dated a lot of people that have a lot of problem problems. I don't know if I've dated any Well, there's I've dated most people I date have a lot of problems. Aaron is an exception to that rule. A lot of you know, substance use self harm, trauma, violence, anger, not necessarily anybody that I've like, characterized as having borderline, I think I have a lot of friends that have traits of borderline more than relationships.

Alex: 40:45

Okay, because I found that when I was 16, I got in trouble. When I left the hospital, I knew I had to get out of that lifestyle. Like I told everyone to kick rocks I was hanging out with this is pretty tough, like I left most of my friends. But then when I went to college university, I basically surrounded myself with the same people only ever going to university. But it was the exact same people the exact same girls that came from the broken families that were just, they I know, I don't know what it was, but I seeked that instability. Even before I was diagnosed with BPD, like I seeked it, like I almost liked it. That's what I find really weird.

Laurie Edmundson: 41:24

That's super common, though. That's so glad. Yeah, I

Alex: 41:27

can't believe it. Like looking back. Like I talked with my parents all the time. Like, I can't believe how I dated certain people, because it's literally like the most toxic thing for me ever. Like, you can look at what the worst kind of relationship looks like for me. And that's exactly who I choose. And I knowingly do it.

Laurie Edmundson: 41:44

And do you think part of that was the fear of abandonment and that if you were in a relationship that was really like, problematic and negative that you didn't have to feel like you were going to be abandoned by somebody good.

Alex: 41:57

I don't know that fear of abandonment. I want to talk about that with you. Because I was selling that I've always had that I never really realized until I was diagnosed that that's one of the main traits. Yeah, so I've never been broken up with in my life. I've always done the breaking up. But it's crazy. Because like, as soon as I break up with someone, like I want to get back together with them. There was one girl in particular that like, I broke up with her. And it was so bad. It was such a bad relationship. Like she knew it. I knew it. It was just it had to it had to end. And the next day, I was like, Oh my gosh, made the worst mistake of my life. Like I'm never gonna find anyone else. And it was just a total total meltdown. So yeah, that was that did play the fear of Bennett did play a big part because I knew that good people probably wouldn't want to hang around me for very long.

Laurie Edmundson: 42:43

Yeah, I mean, I hate you. Please don't leave me is like taglines. Right. And yeah. Oh, my God, I've done that before.

Alex: 42:50

And I still I still get that. But I'm able to recognize it now. Mm hmm. Sounds like it's so mad at my parents. Like, it's so weird because I've lived at home since I was like, I don't live to home for a long time. And sometimes I'll talk to my mom and she'll say something, I'll get so mad. But I just hang up the phone. Like I just say, I gotta go. Yeah, you're leaving for my situation, chill, but I can feel it that I never I'm never talking to her again. I'm never talking to her again. And then the next day I wake up and it's like, okay, it's fine.

Laurie Edmundson: 43:17

Yeah, totally. Yeah, no, I feel that for sure. So, um, in terms of recovery, you had you had mentioned medication, and I'm just curious how medication has played a role in your recovery, if at all?

Alex: 43:30

Oh, I think it's played a big role. I'm still on antidepressants. I'll be on antidepressants for most of my life. I've tried to come off at six times. And it's it's been really bad six times. So fair enough. What medications done for me, first of all, I started taking medication when I was 16. That's when I was in the hospital. And they thought that I had anxiety and impulse control. But bipolar runs in my family, so sort of assumed that it might develop into bipolar disorder. So I was on lithium, which is a mood control, do I which I think is common for borderline personality disorder as well. Some people take it that I've met.

Laurie Edmundson: 44:10

Yeah, I don't know if I know anybody on it. Um, like, it's obviously like one of the main treatments for bipolar. But it's I think it's kind of an outdated treatment. Now for bipolar. Well, I'm not really

Alex: 44:21

sure. I'm not sure because I went off it a long time ago. But I've been basing on almost every medication under the sun. When they were trying to figure out what was wrong with me, they kept trying new things, and I have adverse reaction to this and this and this, and eventually, just an antidepressant worked. And what the antidepressant did for me was, it allowed me to be relaxed enough to be able to actually make it to counseling.

Laurie Edmundson: 44:45

Yeah, me too.

Alex: 44:46

And I always thought I'd get off it after counseling, but unfortunately, it didn't work and I've tried many times to go because there's the side effects of it. You get tired and gain weight, and I always like have this pipe dream and be Be able to get off it, but I know I won't be able to.

Laurie Edmundson: 45:03

Yeah. And you know what if it works for you, then that's okay. Right? Like, I mean, I've, I've also been on a lot of different medications and like, I'm on a combination now that I think works really well. And I, yeah, like one day, hopefully I'll get off of it. But I mean, I've been on an anti psychotic for, like, Oh, my God since I was 18. And it works really well. And I, I don't really care to get off of it.

Alex: 45:25

Yeah, well, you're functioning well. And, like the downsides, just probably, I don't know, this is for me, but like the downsides kind of outweigh the upsides of getting off the medication?

Laurie Edmundson: 45:36

Yeah, you have to do that, that kind of cost benefit analysis with everything, right. And, for me, it was definitely when I was like, 12, or something I got on an antidepressant to help with anxiety and depression and all that stuff. And that was what got me to therapy as well. And so I, I totally think that that's a valid reason to go on medication is just to get yourself to the place where you can do the work. Because I don't think I don't think that medication will ever replace the need to go to therapy to go to DBT to practice your skills to do your homework to sit in your shit and like, learn about it. And help through that process.

Alex: 46:14

Yeah, and to kind of caveat to like physical pain. Like I really hurt my back a year ago, and I couldn't walk. And to get to the hospital, I had to take hydromorphone, which is super strong painkiller, just to get to the hospital, so they could diagnose and then help me. Right? Right. And normally, I would be very against taking a painkiller because I used to use drugs, but I knew I had to take it, because I don't take it I can't get to the hospital. So it's the same sort of thing. You know, I take the antidepressant to go to treatment, but I guess my brain has gotten used to it, or it's just there's just always been a chemical imbalance that maybe it's solving No.

Laurie Edmundson: 46:49

Yeah, totally. And I mean, like medication is for some people is that like a game changer. And for other people, it's not, and it's just realizing what it is for you. And knowing that the first medication you go on is probably not going to be the right one, right. And it's kind of like therapist shopping, you were saying earlier, like you, you need to find a therapist that works in the way that you want them to work and that you need them to work and that that should be more normalized than it is.

Alex: 47:14

Yeah, I really wish that therapists would kind of on their website, put the type of therapy their, their, their type of personality, or they are showing up for the intro session, and you realize it's not gonna work.

Laurie Edmundson: 47:25

I don't know. Like, is there anything that you would want to say kind of in conclusion about coming out or about living with borderline personality disorder as a man or anything?

Alex: 47:34

Sure. Why I say to anyone listening that it can't, it won't stop you from doing anything. If you take it very seriously, and you do the treatment that's advised, it's likely that you're going to feel much better. And I've been able to do things I never thought possible when I was 1920 years old, living in a frickin hospital, I've been able to travel the world with my fiance, some places that are very, very unstable, very unstable countries and have been, it's been a great eye opening experience for me. And I may even go places where mental health is basically illegal. So if I had a breakdown there, I go to jail, instead of getting treatment, which is it's scary to go. But it's very eye opening the way the world actually works. And I've been able to complete my degree, be successful in every way possible. And even be able to share those experiences publicly. And that's been great. So boyan cannot stop you and do not let it stop you from doing what you want to do. In my opinion, just make a plan and try to stick to it as well as you can and things will get better. They might not get to where they where you want them to be. But they're going to get better. The way I look at it is that if you want to do something in a year, try doing it in a month, and you're not going to finish it in a month. But you'll be way closer than you would have been, if you only if you try to do it in a year. So yeah, that's that's just my opinions on it. And as far as coming out, I think everyone can come out when they want to, obviously, if I came out and probably help other people that haven't come out yet, as well. But at this point in my life, I just don't think it would work well for me, and that people might view me differently. And I want to establish kind of a reputation as someone who is trustworthy, and that can do a good job before coming out that I have this problem.

Laurie Edmundson: 49:23

Yeah, and I mean, Marsha Linehan, who created dialectical behavior therapy did the same thing she she has borderline personality disorder didn't tell anybody created the like, number one treatment program for diabetes, or for borderline personality disorder changed all of our lives for the better and then came out and said, Yeah, I have borderline personality disorder. And I'm sure that that was not a fluke, that she did all of the research in the work first, because I can guarantee she knew that there especially back then, that the stigma was going to be so strong that she wasn't going to be able to make the change that she made when she was out.

Alex: 49:56

Yeah, I always think um, you know, on airplanes, Secure your own mask before assisting others. Yep. I think that's very important. Because if you don't put your own mask on first, then you could pass out.

Laurie Edmundson: 50:10

Yeah, you get to a place where it's safe for you to do it.

Alex: 50:13

Yeah. And I also think that, um, you might not agree with this. But I think that stigma from a psychological and evolutionary perspective makes sense, because people are scared of what they don't know about. And that's the stigmas against race, religion, mental illness, is law, if you understand it, the stigma often goes away as it has done, for the most part and candidates still problem. But with race and religion, there's still stigma, there was certain races and religions, but it's gone away, because people will be able to understand that everyone's just a person. And that borderline personality sorter doesn't mean you have a different personality doesn't mean you're going to attack people for no reason, or throw the computer across the room, it just means that your brain functions in a different way. And I think when we talk about stigma, I think it's important to understand that stigma is there for a reason, because people are scared of what they don't know. And

Laurie Edmundson: 51:06

yeah, I agree with you. But I would say that that's why we need to be so open about it. Right?

Alex: 51:11

Yeah, that's simple. Yeah. And that's important. But when I view the stigma that I'd face if I came out, I almost think, okay, it makes sense. If people have no idea what it is, you Google it at the end of the world. Yeah. And I don't want people to Google that about me right now. Eventually, when I can talk about it, I'm gonna talk about it and hopefully, erase the stigma in a couple of people's lives. That's already how speaking publicly about it, it sounds weird, because I'm a public speaker. I haven't called publicly.

Laurie Edmundson: 51:42

You can be a public speaker. Like I know, Alex, and I've done events where, you know, we're speaking to physicians or whatever. And like, that's, that's very different than coming out to the people that you care about, and that you want your relationship to be like personal, right, because, I mean, if I'm gonna go do an education session for doctors, that that's great. And I can guarantee you that some of them are judging me, but I don't really care, because I'm never gonna see them again. Yeah, hope, right. So it's very different.

Alex: 52:10

Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Same with going to high schools and things like that. Yeah. Totally. So anyways, that's a little bit about me. And thanks for having me on, Laurie.

Laurie Edmundson: 52:21

Yes. Thank you so much. It was awesome. And I'm sure this your story is gonna help so many people

Alex: 52:26

Well hopefully it does, hopefully helps one person,

Laurie Edmundson: 52:29

it will guarantee it. Thank you.

Sara Amundson: 52:39

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the bold, beautiful borderline podcast. Laurie and I are o grateful that you're here wi h us on this journey. And we can t wait to dive into more topics n the future with you all abo t borderline, and even have so e more fun and exciting guests o join us on the podcast. If y u really enjoyed this episode, e would love if you would ra e review and subscribe to t e podcast wherever you listen. e would also love to see y u interact with us on social med a and on our Patreon page, t e links to that are included n the show notes. So check us o t there, we would be incredib y honored to get to know you a l as you get to know us and o r recovery stories. We love y u and we'll see you next tim