Bold Beautiful Borderline

I’m Coming Out So You Better Get This Party Started

March 21, 2021 Sara Amundson & Laurie Edmundson Episode 17
Bold Beautiful Borderline
I’m Coming Out So You Better Get This Party Started
Bold Beautiful Borderline +
Starting at $3/month
Support
Show Notes Transcript

Sara and Laurie discuss their experiences coming out with their borderline personality disorder (BPD) diagnosis to family, friends, fellow psychology students, and colleagues.

Sara talks about the process of coming out as queer and how it relates to experiences “coming out” with a mental illness like BPD. 

Laurie shares how coming out has helped her and others around her to really understand why she is feeling and behaving the way she does which can really help with recovery and building a support system. 

Long story short: “If you don’t want to deal with me because I’m me, then I don’t want to deal with you” - Laurie

Trigger warning: suicide 

You can find Laurie and Sara on Instagram to follow their day to day lives even further @laurieanned and @saraswellnessway. You can also find the podcast on IG @boldbeautifulborderline

You can also find Sara's business as a Mental Health Clinician and mental health coach at thewellnesswayllc.com

If you like the show we would love if you could rate, subscribe and support us on Patreon.

You can find our Patreon channel at https://www.patreon.com/boldbeautifulborderline?fan_landing=true

For mental health supports:

National Suicide Prevention Lifeline, 1-800-273-TALK (8255) or Live Online Chat

SAMHSA Treatment Referral Helpline, 1-877-SAMHSA7 (1-877-726-4727)

OR find a local warmline to you at https://screening.mhanational.org/content/need-talk-someone-warmlines 


Support the show

You can find Laurie and Sara on Instagram to follow their day to day lives even further @laurieanned and @saraswellnessway. You can also find the podcast on IG @boldbeautifulborderline

Leave us a voicemail about your thoughts on the show at boldbeautifulborderline.com

Register for our free peer support group at https://www.eventbrite.ca/e/the-super-feelers-club-tickets-145605434775

Register for our low-barrier drop-in DBT group at https://www.thewellnesswayllc.com

Purchase the Exploring Your Borderline Strengths Journal at https://www.amazon.com/Exploring-Your-Borderline-Strengths-Amundson/dp/B0C522Y7QT/ref=sr_1_1?crid=IGQBWJRE3CFX&keywords=exploring+your+borderline+strengths&qid=1685383771&sprefix=exploring+your+bor%2Caps%2C164&sr=8-1

If you like the show we would love if you could rate, subscribe and support us on Patreon.

Patreon info here: https://www.patreon.com/boldbeautifulborderline?fan_landing=true ...

Hi, everybody, and welcome to the bold, beautiful borderline podcast. My name is Laurie. And as always, I'm here with my best friend Sarah. And we are going to be talking today about our experiences coming out with borderline personality disorder. It should be noted that on Wednesday, this week, we're going to also release an episode about a perspective of somebody who's not ready to come out. And the fact that that's okay, too. So you're probably going to hear a lot about me specifically saying how important it is to come out and how awesome it is to be out. But just know that this is not necessarily everybody's experience or belief on the subject. So before we get started, I'm going to get passed over to Sarah so that she can talk about something super exciting.

Sara Amundson:

Thank you, Laurie. Yeah. So we have our first Patreon subscriber. And we just wanted to personally thank Paige for your love and support. It absolutely. Just lights us up. So Paige, thank you so much. All right. Laurie, how do you want to get going on this one?

Laurie Edmundson:

Well, I kind of want to hear from you first, because your experiences coming out are a lot fresher. And I know that you are still not as like, out as I am.

Sara Amundson:

Yeah, I was just going to say that. Like, I feel like such a fraud because I'm like, I'm half out.

Laurie Edmundson:

I'm not hiding it.

Sara Amundson:

That's the thing. That's the thing that I was gonna say is like, I'm out should people choose to look right? Does that make sense? Like, I don't introduce myself as like, Hi, I'm Sarah with borderline personality disorder, but like the information is out there if people want to find it. I do say to people all the time, I struggle with emotional regulation. And I say to people, like I have to work really hard at emotional regulation. But I didn't have like the traditional coming out experience because when I got diagnosed, I was in graduate school and I was like living several hours away from my family and like my childhood friends. Um, but I did come out to a couple of my friends at school, just three women that I was like really close with. And that was a really empowering moment for me. And it was like shortly after the diagnosis. So while like talking to my mom about it took years and we're just now getting to a place where we kind of like mentioned it or open about it. I did talk about it with my friend Amanda and Sarah and Nancy and they were super, super supportive. So I was really grateful for that.

Laurie Edmundson:

And so they were also masters of social work students.

Sara Amundson:

Yeah, and we we were like conveniently in a I don't remember what the class was called. But did you take abnormal psych? Yeah. Okay, so it was like a master's level Social Work version of that class. But so we did like a in depth review of the DSM five, and then the process to diagnose and assess people. So like, we were learning about, like, the entire experience that I was personally having. And and Sarah, Nancy and Amanda and I had built this like really beautiful, super loving and supportive bond. This like super loving and supportive bond through college that my like, really, like when I think about people that have held me up in my life, like these are women that, like, held me up, and that I was able to, like, hold up and yeah, so they were great. Yes, they are MSW.

Laurie Edmundson:

And the reason I, the reason I asked that is because there is so much stigma within the community, and profession of psychology, social work. And so it's almost harder to come out to people that are aware of what BPD is, then it is randoms on the street. So that's, that's why I asked.

Sara Amundson:

So we were far enough into our program that like I could tell that these were women that were actively, like social justice warriors, right. Like they were like fighting the stigma. But also we weren't so far into our program that we were counseling people yet. And so like, I don't know how much personal experience they had with anyone with BPD. I was just thinking, so do you know much about the kind of process for people coming out as queer?

Laurie Edmundson:

No.

Sara Amundson:

So it's a parallel I have to make, because I never was able to, like naturally follow the process of coming out of square. But basically, like, there's a ton of research that supports this concept, which don't quote me. But you first notice your like sexual urges to people of the opposite, or the same sex, and then you, like, start to explore it right? Like porn, or books or whatever, then you start to like, come out to yourself and accept it with yourself. And then you kind of practice coming out to people that you know, are going to be supportive. So you like go out to like a LGBTQ event. And then you realize, like, they're safe. And then you can come out to like, close friends and family, because you realize, like, it's not the end of the world. And then eventually, you're just like, fuck it, I'm gay. Anyway, so there's just this whole process. And I think that like my coming out with Sara, Nancy and Amanda was that same, like, these are people I knew would be loving and supportive. So it felt natural to me to be the first people that I told. And then, at the time, I had a partner, which is a whole, that's a whole ordeal. But despite the unhealthy relationship that we had at the time, my partner, Mackenzie was like, oh, everything makes sense. So

Laurie Edmundson:

and that's why I think coming out is so important. I, I strongly believe like, I understand that people don't like labels. And I understand that because of the stigma of borderline. Having a label can lead to negative consequences, which are completely outside of the person who has borderline it's the system that's the problem. But it's the that is so so helpful. Like that is a life changing experience to have and I think that like what do you get the right diagnosis? That's what it feels like. And I know there's so many people who have been mis diagnosed as bipolar mis diagnosed as ADHD misdiagnosis. But what are we talking about borderline? And like, and it's, a lot of times people are like, I don't feel like this is my diagnosis. And in my, I think if you spend enough time like dealing with the internal like shame of having this diagnosis, and use and you still feel like it doesn't fit. Maybe it doesn't fit right But it's like, if it does fit, it fits so well. And it just feels so good to not be alone and to be like, accepted. Accepted is such a weird word because this can this process can all happen on its own. Right. But like you were saying, right, you've kind of done that self exploration, and then you're just like, I think I'm gay. And then you can kind of move forward, right? feels great.

Sara Amundson:

Yeah. And I mean, for me, it was years of, oh, like, hypomania, bipolar two, all these things before I saw this psychiatrist who was like, have you ever been told that maybe have borderline personality disorder, and I started bawling. Because I was like, I know what that means. Like, I know that people are gonna hate me. But then I also remember walking out of that appointment and being like, everything in my life makes sense. It was the most validated I have ever felt.

Laurie Edmundson:

And I think it's important to talk about the fact that that process can take a very long time, I think it was probably two years of me being told, oh, you have borderline traits, oh, you have borderline traits. Nobody wanted to diagnose me. Finally, I found a counselor that was willing to refer me to a psychiatrist, that would diagnose me. And even after that, like official diagnosis on paper, that is the right diagnosis, it still took me probably a year to get to that point of accepting it myself, and not having so much internal shame that I couldn't move forward. And like, it does all make sense. But I just want people to know that like, That feeling is not necessarily Sara's experience, where it's like, she literally leaves her appointment goes, Oh, my God, everything makes sense. And then goes forward. Like, that's not. That's not how it goes for a lot of people.

Sara Amundson:

Yeah. And I'd also like to note that, like, it wasn't like, I went forward straight into a DBT program. It was like, two more years of binge drinking a lot of random sex, you know, like a line of coke or two in front of the gay bar. Like, it wasn't, this was not okay. I have borderline let's go into DBT. Right. Like, it was. It was a lot more complicated than that. But I think it was two years later, when I finally got into a DBT program. And that was when I think that was also further validating of like, these skills are so transformative in my life, that that diagnosis is so obviously, correct.

Laurie Edmundson:

Yeah, and meeting other people that have the same diagnosis and being like, Oh, my God, I see myself in you is really, really helpful.

Sara Amundson:

Yeah, so that's my story. Let's hear yours.

Laurie Edmundson:

I feel like that wasn't your whole story. But

Sara Amundson:

I mean, ask away. What more do you want?

Laurie Edmundson:

Well, maybe we'll come back to it. Because I think that the the part that I'm most interested in hearing is like us coming together. Literally, the two of us coming together and like your message to me on Instagram, and like, me being like, Girl, you need to come

Sara Amundson:

totally transformative. We could totally talk about that.

Laurie Edmundson:

Yeah, so let's, I'll share mine, and then we'll go into that. So I was diagnosed, probably around 18 ish. I, I'm terrible with numbers. But again, I've been hearing borderline traits, borderline traits, borderline traits for a really long time. I was a psych student. I knew what people thought about borderline. And we all know that that's not positive. So when I was finally diagnosed, I spent all of my energy learning about the diagnosis. So like, I mean, every single paper I wrote for school, if I could make it about borderline, I would didn't matter what topic it was, if I could, like, tie it into borderline, I would because it meant that I was able to focus my attention and time on to learning everything I possibly could about this experience. And the research behind it while getting my homework done, right? Like, I mean, at the same time, like I can't just spend all of my life studying or studying this thing if it's not, like relevant to school. So that was really helpful. Because it just solidified everything I knew. But it was also unhelpful in that I was reading journal articles that are like, comparing borderline to mental retardation. Literally, wait, what? Yeah,

Sara Amundson:

and we're like, we don't use that like,

Laurie Edmundson:

No, no, no, but like, but like, clinically, like articles from like, 2013. Saying that, like people with borderline will never be cured. It's like, internal. You're never you're basically huh? Never To survive, right?

Sara Amundson:

Wait, can we just take it? Sorry, let's come back to this in a second. In Canada, did they truly diagnose people with intellectual disabilities with mental retardation?

Laurie Edmundson:

I don't know if that's the diagnosis, but that's what you would see in articles.

Sara Amundson:

Wow.

Laurie Edmundson:

I think so.

Sara Amundson:

So in Washington, we use intellectual disability. But Oregon I think still uses Mr. Which is like so unacceptable. I know. Yeah.

Laurie Edmundson:

I mean, I hate that word.

Sara Amundson:

I know, you know, the social worker news like what? Okay, continue. I

Laurie Edmundson:

for sure. The articles I was reading for like, 2013. We're saying mental retardation. I don't know exactly. If that's what we call it any more in Canada. I think that that's officially what it's called, though, still.

Sara Amundson:

And that's so unacceptable. But I guess in 2013, that would make sense. That is so unacceptable.

Laurie Edmundson:

Yeah. Sorry. And I just want to clarify, like, I obviously don't go around saying that. Yeah, like just like, clinically, I'm pretty sure that's what it was called anyway. Either way, though, that's not true. So, yeah. So I was dealing with, like, the stigma that I was reading in academia, while taking classes where people were talking about how difficulty with borderline are and how that's the last person they want to work with, and blah, blah, blah. while battling this myself and going like, Okay, well, I want I wanted to be a DBT clinician, because it changed my life. And like, I think I would be a really great DBT clinician.

Sara Amundson:

You would,

Laurie Edmundson:

yeah. So I was like, Okay, well, can I come out and still be a DBT clinician. And I had mixed reviews on that, what I asked to some people that were like, you know, experts in the field about that. And they were like, No, I wouldn't, or like, people aren't gonna want to hire you, and blah, blah, blah. And it's like, okay, but here I am getting a in your class. And you're telling me that like, nobody will hire me because I have borderline. And like, I remember we, in my abnormal psych class, I think it was like psychopathology or whatever. We had to do a presentation on a specific disorder and an evidence based treatment. And I was like, Oh, that's awesome. And they said, they didn't want it to just be like a PowerPoint, they wanted to be like something different. And so I went to my psychopathology class, and I talked to my prof and I was like, I feel like I could do a really awesome presentation about my life and experience with borderline personality disorder, going through DBT. And like, I can share specific skills, I can share the research, but like, it will be the, like, unique perspective that you're looking for. And she was like, No, that's inappropriate. You shouldn't be telling you that. I was like, bitch, why? Yeah, it's like, I feel like,

Sara Amundson:

why we go into the field of psych. Like, we don't do it, because we're like, I love human behavior. We do it because we are like, analyzing ourselves.

Laurie Edmundson:

Yeah. But it was like, sorry, you're telling me it's inappropriate that I even told you that, when I feel like it would actually provide significant value to my classmates, because they're hearing a perspective that like they wouldn't hear otherwise. Right? Like, things like that, where you're just like, Oh, my God. And so I finally did officially, like come out. It was May 7, oh, my God, I don't remember a year like 2016 or 2015, probably. And it was at an event in Squamish. And I was just set it at a speech, I said, I have borderline personality disorder. This is my experience. And it was so scary. But really awesome. At the same time, and my dad and I had spent like months debating whether or not to and whatever. And finally, I was like, you know, what, if you don't want to deal with me, because I mean, then like, I don't want to deal with you. And I will, I am strong, passionate, driven, smart, I will find an opportunity elsewhere, like whether or not I can be a DBT clinician one day, Fine, whatever. I don't need to be a DBT clinician, but like I can still make change in this world. As somebody who identifies as borderline and that was just that's been my philosophy ever since. That said, I do love watching people squirm. So I, I have been known to not tell people I have borderline right away like I don't have a tattoo that says I have borderline personalities or on my forehead. Because there is there are there is stigma and that's like that's the truth, right? If I'm in a job interview, I'll say I have mental health, like lived experience with mental illness. I won't say what it is just because I'm not an idiot. And I just I want people to get to know me before they judge me on whatever. So like a couple of examples of watching people scream sorry, squirm is, um, I had a friend who was in psych nursing, and she didn't know how to borderline and I heard her just trash people with borderline. So after I Let her finish, you know, oh, they just need to be medicated. They're terrible people. Oh, they, you know, they're gonna die anyway. But I just, you know, wait a second and then go, huh? Well when I was diagnosed, and I just love watching their face, just like, go white and be like, Oh shit, because they don't think that people with borderline can be like me, right. And another example was I was I worked in a, like a DBT setting and I did intakes. And I was working with a couple of people, I think maybe they were training me. And I remember them saying, I said, like, oh, why don't we do intakes after like 4pm? Like, I feel like it's kind of unfair for us to only do intakes between like eight and four, like, what if people have jobs? And they were like, Oh, well, nobody that's going to qualify has jobs.

Sara Amundson:

I can't not.

Laurie Edmundson:

Yeah, so again, I sit there. I take a second. And then I go, Hmm, well, it's before four, and I'm here working with you. So interesting, because I have borderline personality disorder myself. And I actually do qualify for this program. That is some of my favorite experience in the world. I'm not gonna lie to you. Because it goes to show that a I I'm constantly reminded that the stigma exists, and that it is prevalent. But it also, I hope, jolts people enough that they're like, Oh, my God, because I feel like if I told them beforehand, they wouldn't necessarily be honest with me, or give me a chance. And so I usually give it you know, a couple of months or whatever, and then I will come out at a certain point when I know they're safe. Some people aren't safe. Some people I don't come out to, if you google me, you're gonna find out I have Porter. I'm like, I'm not hiding it. If you look at my Facebook, I have word on Instagram. I have word of like, not hiding it. But I don't necessarily just like walk up to people and say, Hey, I have borderline personality disorder unless it's relevant to the conversation.

Sara Amundson:

Yeah, because that would be terrifying.

Laurie Edmundson:

Well, and it's just inappropriate sometimes too, right? Like, I mean, nobody cares. Right? Like, I'm sure you don't go up to some, like some random people and be like, Hello, I like women and men. Okay, how would you like to pay today?

Unknown:

You know what I mean? Like, what do you want in your coffee?

Laurie Edmundson:

Not not quite what they're going for.

Sara Amundson:

Right? Yeah, there's so it's so wild, isn't it? Like, I remember, I worked for the developmental disabilities administration of Washington for like five or six years, the absolute love of my life is like working with people with it. And our highest acuity patients that would often have to go to like an inpatient setting, or a state run institution, which they're still for in the state of Washington. Often we're like, young, there's a very high percentage of people who are institutionalized, who are dually diagnosed with intellectual disability and borderline personality disorder. And yeah, I mean,

Laurie Edmundson:

it's because borderline personality disorder is huge in institutions.

Sara Amundson:

Yeah, well, and furthermore, you have to have strong cognitive ability is to be really well involved in DBT. Because it, it takes a ton of intellectual capacity to you to identify the moments for skills work and use them. Now, that's not to say that a person with an IQ of 60 can't follow through with a DBT program and be in recovery. They 1,000% can, however, it takes a ton of work between them and their treatment team and their direct care staff to do that, and often direct care staff are like so underpaid, and so exhausted, that they are not helpful in the process. And then that alienates the individual, right. So that's my hope.

Laurie Edmundson:

And unfortunately, I think that a lot of the time, because DBT is so intensive, and so cognitively focused, they wouldn't even get into DBT programs, at least up here. I don't know about down there.

Sara Amundson:

Yeah, that's, that is a piece of it, that's really difficult to is trying to have them participate. So we had quite a few young people with ID and BPD in state run institutions. And I was working with someone to try to find placement in the community. And I remember this case manager saying like God, so and so was just a borderline from hell. And I was just sitting there like, I hate myself so much. Like, I can't even say to him like, hey, so am I like, Yeah, what you're saying is like so not appropriate. And if it's our case, managers that believe this who are responsible for finding this person housing, right. They're not going to find housing.

Laurie Edmundson:

No Because they're going to come up, even if it's not true, they're going to say like, Oh, well, they're never gonna pay rent, they're going to trash the house, they're going to use substances. They're going to have parties, they're going to have random sex they're going to like, and it's these things that Well, did you ever actually like ask the person if they do any of these things? Because like, not all of us do those things.

Sara Amundson:

Right? And have you talked to them about skills based work?

Laurie Edmundson:

Also? Yeah,

Sara Amundson:

yeah. So it's the sigma in the field is 1,000% why I didn't come out until I met you, Laurie. Because it's terrifying. And also having worked in inpatient, in child psychiatric inpatient. You know, the, the language that nursing staff, especially uses about people with borderline is just so devastating.

Laurie Edmundson:

Oh, my God, I have like, God bless all the psych nurses out there. But I have had very, very few good experiences with a psych nurse as a person with borderline, I can't think of a single one to be perfectly honest with you, because the stigma of psych nursing on people with borderline is like, intense, it's, it's probably my like, least favorite people to interact with. And again, no offense, just like nurses, but no,

Sara Amundson:

and they have hard jobs. But totally The problem is not in them in their jobs. It's in the system that believes that inpatient treatment should be led by nursing teams, when it should be led by social workers.

Laurie Edmundson:

100 percent,

Sara Amundson:

like, why are we assigning case loads to nurses, when their job is just to pass meds and treat a medical illness, it should be social workers that our carrying case loads and inpatient. And frankly, we get paid less than nurses do. So like, it benefits everybody?

Laurie Edmundson:

Well, and and it's not only the systems that they work in, but it's also the systems they're taught in, like, I don't believe for a second that most psych nurses go into psych nursing because they want to drug people with mental illness and want them to be sedated. I don't believe that. But I think that the way that the system teaches them, that is often what the result is, and again, like Sarah, and I experienced, like this intense stigma and are learning from psychology degrees, which is not something that's like nursing would have a lot of the time.

Sara Amundson:

No, so the psych nurses that I worked with the child and patients, like didn't have formal Mental Health Training. And very often they would lead with, you know, what is it like when you like, puff up your shoulders and be like, Look, aggressive, but just like, power, right, like, Hi, hold, we're not partners in this, I am the one that holds this decision making power and capacity over you as the patient. Yes. And they don't understand that that is not going to get anyone anywhere, except for that, in my case, the child in a hold. And that ruins any therapeutic relationship that you can possibly have with a person when you put your hands on them. And they no longer have, like responsibility for their own body. They've had that autonomy taken from them. And there's nothing worse that you can do in the world than to take someone's like bodily autonomy away from them, because it's all they have. Right.

Laurie Edmundson:

So anyways, well, and also the percentage of people with borderline that have significant trauma and sexual abuse histories. I mean, it's like, it's really way worse for that group.

Sara Amundson:

Yeah, it's really high. So one of the problems is that psych nurses, because they don't have the formal, like Mental Health Training, they don't understand Person Centered language, they don't understand how to validate, they don't understand how to reflect how to motivationally interview, they use that kind of power and decision making, like capacity as a tool to protect themselves, right, because they're afraid like, I totally get this, like nurses are in dangerous positions. 1,000% get that they're afraid of having anything like that happen to them. But then they get stuck in psych nursing because they no longer use their medical skills. And they can't go work in an ed or in an oncology unit or whatever, because you don't use a ton of nursing skills in psych units, like outside of passing meds and like doing regular testing and whatever, you're not putting picc lines in people, hard for them to get out of psych nursing and then they end up getting jaded and exhausted because they've been there too long.

Laurie Edmundson:

Well, I mean, I think that's the case with all nursing, right, like, I mean, a lot of the work that I am part of, outside of this is like racism in the healthcare system. And like, it's prevalent, like, it's crazy, like, I assume it's the same in the States. But in Canada, it's like really messed up. And indigenous people are like, constantly dying, because they're not receiving care. And it's a whole thing. But, again, I don't think that everybody that goes into the healthcare system is inherently racist and trying to hurt indigenous people, I just think that the system is set up to like, perpetuate racism, that is with you know, your supervisors or your colleagues or just so many things. But yeah, I think it's very similar to racism in the in the system, it's just I think racism is I don't know how to put this but like, more obvious maybe, and being called out more, which is amazing.

Sara Amundson:

is amazing, and absolutely needs to be. Yeah, it is, I think the same in the States, although that's not something I specifically specialize in. But I know that there's been a ton around COVID and people of color and not being, you know, being treated the same way as you know, white people. And like women and pregnancy and like their own health. Women of Color have poor treatment. I also know like, there's a ton of stigma around like, like black people specifically in med seeking.

Laurie Edmundson:

Yeah. So is people here to I mean, the thing about Canada is like, the indigenous experience of racism is like more prevalent because we just, like simply don't have as many black people and so they're for sure experiencing racism in the healthcare system, I have no doubt. It's just not as like forefront up here.

Sara Amundson:

That's definitely an area that I would like to learn more about and would absolutely benefit from learning more about. But yeah, so my own like work in inpatient psych and and like many years of case management, working with high acuity patients who, again, like the highest acuity patients often have these mental health disorders that just naturally bring behavioral struggles with them, like, like, and you and I know this, right? Like, we struggle behaviorally. Like, what, I don't know how many times I've told people that Fuck off. So I'm just being witnessing that day in and day out was like, I can never come out with this, this information. And I've always felt like I've been living a lie, especially when I like, in my mental health coaching, practice teach DBT skills to my patients, and you can see the dysregulation. And I never want people to feel like I'm just a stuffy clinician that isn't a human that can't relate, right. It's also not appropriate for me to say, to a client, I have, you know, BPD and whatever level of like, you have to be authentically you to establish a trusting therapeutic relationship. So I've struggled with coming out for fear, I've also struggled with coming out for like, I'm, or my clients not going to want to work with me, if I someday decide to go back into like, being employed, are they not going to want to hire me, you know, there's just a lot of that. And that held me off for a really long time of coming out. But second to that being the wife of a corporal, I was like, I have this responsibility to not come out. Because that is almost like this black cloud on our family. So

Laurie Edmundson:

do you think it's a black cloud on your parents as well? I mean, I know your dad's not really aware. But like, do you think that your mom feels guilt or shame about the fact that you have borderline because of potential, like, people are always saying, Oh, it's because of parenting.

Sara Amundson:

I don't think that she feels shame about her parenting as a whole. I know she 1,000% feels shame about the impact of my and my brother's like lives having been raised in her family that had a ton of chaos and intergenerational like trauma. And we were just witness to things growing up that she couldn't protect us from because you hit me. You're not not gonna tell your kids that. Like their uncle put a bullet through his head, right like that. How do you how do you avoid that when everybody's around talking about it? So um, I think that cause that like the The Chaos like, from her family caused her to be more of a helicopter than she might have otherwise been. So like, I don't know, who I would be if I hadn't been raised in a family with so much trauma and so much chaos and so much substance use and people in and out of jail and prison and things like that. But I stand by they did the best they could with the very few skills that they had, and they want the absolute like best for me, and my parents will do fucking anything like, for me and my health, like if I had to go into a hospital today, my parents would show up with money to, like, help support and pay for whatever I need. And I i think that that's always been their way of like, being able to be supportive and loving to me is being able to help pay for things right. Not that I asked for anything, but I think that it makes them feel good to know that if I need support, like they can financially be helpful to me, because as you know, hospitalization is expensive.

Laurie Edmundson:

I don't know, because I'm from Canada.

Unknown:

Now that we've talked about it. Yeah,

Laurie Edmundson:

yeah. But I mean, I have no idea what it would cost to be inpatient. I mean, 1000 $5,000 a day or something? Probably. Yeah, I

Sara Amundson:

don't know.

Laurie Edmundson:

Like, I know, it costs money. I just don't know how much

Sara Amundson:

yeah. Beside now, I was working for this stabilization and crisis unit. And I won't give any more information about that. But um, federally funded, state funded dollars $60,000 a bed a month for these individuals. Wow. hospitalization is very expensive. I just had an IUD and I got a bill from my insurance for $920 for preventative health care services, and that was Yeah,

Laurie Edmundson:

that's the biggest difference. If you think about how much money an IUD saves the system, long term, it's insane. Like, I mean, even up here, I think an IUD is like 500 bucks. So like, if you have insurance, great. If you don't have insurance, then like you have to pay 500 bucks. But like, I think we should be giving out IUDs like we give out condoms because it's way more effective. And we're going to save on the cost of abortions, we're going to save on the costs of kids in foster care. Like, kids that can't survive because they don't have the financial resources. Like it's just crazy to me. In general, we should talk about sexual health one time.

Sara Amundson:

Yeah, we should talk about sexual health one time.

Laurie Edmundson:

It's not really borderline related, but like it kind of is.

Sara Amundson:

Um, no, I think I went 1,000% is because as you know, a lot of people with impulsivity are having impulsive sex. And they're skipping over the Have you been tested? Are we using condoms? conversation?

Laurie Edmundson:

Are we No, yeah,

Sara Amundson:

we need to normalize that conversation. First of all these days, it's like, what's your COVID? Bubble? Like? Have you been vaccinated? Do you? What's your risk level? Do you see your grandparents? Like there's a whole COVID screening before you have random sex with someone? And then it's like, all right, are you but like, are you like STD free? Are we using a condom or not using a condom? If we're not using a condom? Are you having sex with other people? I mean, then it's just like Jesus Christ. I might as well just masturbate. Yeah. Do you want me to send you a Google Doc for this? Like, I don't understand. You know, it's just a wild times right now. But anyways, um, what are we talking about?

Laurie Edmundson:

People ask me if this podcast is scripted. And I'm like, Have you listened to this podcast? Because it is clearly not scripted.

Sara Amundson:

Yeah, definitely not.

Laurie Edmundson:

Okay, we were taught, hey, we're gonna go back. We apologize for the random tangent. We're gonna go back to Sara reached out to me on instagram bras and asked me if I wanted to be a guest on her podcast, her other podcast. And so that's how we ended up talking and like, our true love story began. But I remember us talking. We did like a little bit of a pre interview or whatever. And she was like, Yeah, I have borderline and I was like, Oh, cool. And she's like, but I don't talk about it. And nobody knows. And I was like, excuse me?

Sara Amundson:

I think I was like, in between 10 different things. And I remember being like, I have, like, 10 minutes to talk to you. I'm so so sorry. We have to do this really quickly. This is not how I like to work, but

Laurie Edmundson:

yeah, it's true. It's okay. I was on vacation. So it worked out. But yeah, so I remember just being like, what do you mean you're not out like you host a mental Health podcast like you're like, what? And so anyway, we did that we did the podcast with her. Or we, her and I did the podcast for other her other show. And I kind of would subtly throw in like the Oh, well, you know, stuff like that. But I don't know if you ever said you have borderline on that episode.

Sara Amundson:

I don't. I don't know. But it was clear, we were talking about the same expense. And listen, if you go back to like, 2019 episodes of the I'm alive because podcast, the first episode is with Tori. And I think in the first 10 minutes, like I make a joke about how my personality is disordered. So like, it's it's been there all along, but I'm not like, my name is Sara Amundson, my date of birth is 8 17 93. I'm O negative. I have borderline personality disorder. You know what I mean?

Laurie Edmundson:

Yeah, and I don't I don't think that that's necessarily what we need to do. What I do think we need to do, though, is use our success in life like, like not not financial, not whatever. Just like, being a person that doesn't, doesn't fit with the stereotype that people have with borderline. I think every single one of us should say, look, I have borderline and you would have had no idea because you think that I should be in a hospital in a jail or on the streets. And that's not the reality.

Sara Amundson:

Yeah. So I struggle with this. I struggle with this. The reason being is I don't think that I owe anyone an advocacy status. Does that make sense? Like I like I choose to be an advocate. And I get to choose what I am an am not an advocate about and for. And like, I'm not always, like, as boldly proud of who I am as you are. I also think there's like, more time, right?

Laurie Edmundson:

Well, and I should I should say, like, I'm not everyday waking up being like, I'm a bad bitch with borderline personality disorder. And I love myself like, that is not, that is not what this is. No, but I also wouldn't give it up. And I think that that's a difference for a lot of people.

Sara Amundson:

Yeah, I would. I like, I like I am constantly having to work through this deep shame associated with. I'm just too much for people. I'm just too much for people. And there's very little that I can do to change that. Right. Like, one of I was in. I was in therapy the other day and my therapist was like, okay, we're going to confront something. And I said, Okay, Jennifer, what are we going to confront? She's like, so, you gloss over? You're feeling like you're like, yep, I had a feeling and then you like turn your head you don't look at me. And then you make a joke, and you move on? Why do you do that? And I said, well, like all I heard growing up from, like, my mother and people around me is that I was I was I'm so overwhelming. I'm too much I need to quiet down I need to back away. Right. And that self stigma is so strong. I it is I remember it like keeping I remember being a kid like a sleeping on a couch in our like play room. And like, just crying. And I couldn't name why but I can feel it's like this gut like throat. It's like, like stops you from breathing the shame. So anyways, um I wish I could say I'm like as cool with saying to people, I have borderline personality disorder. And I wish I was a better advocate sometimes. But I also think that I don't owe anyone that advocacy status. So sometimes it's hard to decide when I do and don't want to use that. I also think that this podcast is my way of doing that. So if I'm not, if I never get to a place of saying to someone in person, I have borderline personality disorder. I at least know that for however long we do this podcast that I contributed to, like positive perspectives about people with BPD. And I'm proud of that, but

Laurie Edmundson:

oh my god, you're like, you're an incredible advocate. And this is like when we know from the reception we've had that this is super, super, super helpful for people. And I don't necessarily think it's only helpful for people who have borderline I've had people at work come up to me and be like, I didn't have any idea what borderline was but my my stepdaughters diagnosed and like you hearing your stories explains everything. And like things like that. It's not just for the people that have that disorder. But you're an incredible advocate. And I agree that you don't owe anybody anything. And I think that this is like, where tokenism is a big problem in the healthcare field is like, I strongly believe in the need for patient centered care. And I strongly believe for the need for people with lived experience being active participants in healthcare reform. However, that does not mean, okay, well, you're going to come to this conference and stand here. This means you're going to come to this conference, you're going to be the keynote speaker, and the rest of us will support you. Because our experience is expertise. And I think that it's slowly getting there. But I think there's still a lot of tokenism. That is the case in the advocacy area.

Sara Amundson:

So yeah. And that's just hard. I mean, yeah, it's just, it's just hard. It's hard to live. Your own authentic experience when it's so complicated, and it's so sometimes so painful, but then also, sometimes it's like, so full of joy that in itself is overwhelming to and I'm, I'm still figuring it out. But I know that like, my friendship with you is super empowering to me. So that, like, I can see that you and Aaron have this like loving supportive partnership, right? That, that that's the thing that's possible and that you have employment, where like, people are supportive of you and your health, and, like, you have friends and you have like, sitting down with you and your dad, right? It was so empowering to me, because that's not a thing I've ever done. And I don't know, if it's the thing I've never done because my dad couldn't or because I have so much shame, I would never invite it

Laurie Edmundson:

will thank you for all of that. But one thing that I just want to say is I think that my relationship with Aaron, is so strong, because he knew I had borderline personality disorder from the day he met me. And I've been in a lot of relationships where I've come out later on in the relationship, and I've been immediately dumped. Right? So I think I've just so obviously he's an incredible human, which helps. But like he knew from the minute he first met me that I had borderline personality disorder, and he was able to ask questions and come to terms with that, and do his research and all of that. So I think it's a lot easier in romantic relationships to like, start that. And of course, you're gonna end up with some people that you're gonna accidentally rule out. But hopefully, you can end up with the right person in the end.

Sara Amundson:

Yeah. And that was one of the things that was really hard was, like I had, you know, some books that I wanted Tori to read or whatever, but I don't think she ever had like the mental and emotional capacity to read about them and take them on, because law enforcement is just so invasive. And I remember she had like a book for me about being a law enforcement wife that she wanted me to read, and I never read it. So that goes both ways, right. But yeah, I do hope that a future partnership or relationship can be with someone who like, checks their stigma. And that is, by far the most terrifying thing for me about having to someday enter a dating scenario, again, is how do I come out to somebody and say, This is such a big part of my life now with our podcast, and my social media president presence and whenever is obviously led by it's more influenced by the BPD diagnosis than it ever has. And Can someone make space for that? And will they be loving and supportive? You know, that's my biggest fear. So

Laurie Edmundson:

they will use it'll be the right person. And I think it's important like, you know, you can give Tori books to read or she if books to read for you. But like, I know, for a fact, I have some of my best friends that have been with me through a lot of shit that listen to this podcast. And, you know, I said, Oh, I'm like, thank you so much for listening. Like, you don't have to do that. And they're like, No, I want to do that. Like, I'm learning so much about you and your experience. Like, those are the people that I have around. And like, there's a reason that those are the people that I keep in my life because they want to learn without judgment, and they'll ask questions and like all of these things, and I think that is one of the benefits of coming out is that they can kind of learn more about me as well.

Sara Amundson:

Yeah. I'm feeling so much shame about the fact that like, I never talked to people about this podcast.

Laurie Edmundson:

You don't have to though, like that's, you can do it if you want. You don't have to do it. Like I'm just that this is who I am. Yeah, she will get there. And we will maybe do a bonus episode of like when Sarah is more comfortable. But for now let's call this a day. And thank you all for listening. Just keep in mind that again, our perspective on coming out is not necessarily what your perspective needs to be. And while I can sometimes come off as like annoyingly passionate about, everybody should come out and be open about everything. That that's not everybody's experience. And we will have an episode coming up shortly about somebody who has borderline that does not want to come out and his reasons for that. We love you guys.

Sara Amundson:

Hi, friends, thank you cast orien I are so grateful that you're here with us on this journey. And we can't wait to dive into more topics in the future with you all about borderline, and even have some more fun and exciting guests to join us on the podcast. If you really enjoyed this episode, we would love if you would rate review and subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. We would also love to see you interact with us on social media and on our Patreon page, the links to that are included in the show notes. So check us out there. We would be incredibly honored to get to know you all as you get to know us and our recovery stories. We love you and we'll see you next time. Oh