Debunking the Borderline Rage

Anger, Guilt, and Self-Hatred

People often associate BPD with anger and violence which is not helped by media representations and BPD being a classified as a “personality disorder”. The truth is, while we may get angrier than most, violence and BPD are not always interconnected. Laurie and Sara discuss their experiences with anger and learning how to minimize it as well as the guilt associated with anger towards others. Trigger warnings: domestic violence

You can find Laurie and Sara on Instagram to follow their day to day lives even further @laurieanned and @saraswellnessway. You can also find the podcast on IG @boldbeautifulborderline

You can also find Sara's business as a Mental Health Clinician and mental health coach at thewellnesswayllc.com

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Transcript

Laurie Edmundson: 0:27

Hi, everyone, and welcome to the bold, beautiful borderline podcast. My name is Laurie and I'm here with my friend Sarah and today we're going to talk about anger and what that means for people with borderline personality disorder. So just to begin, anger is pretty common in people with borderline personality disorder. And it can often be considered or called like a borderline rage. You'll probably see it in movies that have people with borderline personality disorder in them some thinking, like girl interrupted, has somebody with borderline in it. There's another one but anyways, like, those will often kind of show that angry side. And it's worth noting that not everybody was born with borderline is angry and that anger doesn't necessarily need to be scared of.

Sara Amundson: 1:14

That's okay. Grammar doesn't count in the podcasting world. Isn't that one movie with Jennifer Lawrence and Bradley Cooper? I think she was supposed to have borderline in that movie.

Laurie Edmundson: 1:28

Honestly, there's no good representations, in my opinion of people with borderline in movies.

Sara Amundson: 1:34

Yeah,

Laurie Edmundson: 1:34

Girl interrupted is for sure one. Silver Linings Playbook is that?

Sara Amundson: 1:39

yeah, that movie.

Laurie Edmundson: 1:42

I thought she had bipolar. I've actually never seen it. But anyways, apparently, it's about borderline so cool.

Sara Amundson: 1:48

So you should watch it. But I think um, that's interesting. I've never heard borderline rage as a term. But one of the ones that I heard a ton in working in mental health and social services was"borderline from hell". And that term is like, so incredibly triggering to me. And it's always used in reference to anger. And I like I just feel personally attacked when I hear that statement.

Laurie Edmundson: 2:20

Yeah, and I feel attacked when I hear borderline rage or borderline anger as well. So, I mean, I think that that's the issue is like, if that's all we're talked about, as like, that's so not representative of what our lives are actually like. And, yes, do I get more angry than than, like, average person? Sure. But I also get more happy and more lovable or love, loving, like, I get more everything than everybody else. So like why just like signal signal out this one thing. And I think that that's like, where a lot of the stigma comes from, is like, oh, you're violent. Oh, you're angry. And like, we saw that with the BPD hashtag ban on Instagram. Like it said, content that's dangerous. We're not dangerous. If you look at now, hashtag BPD is back online after we like thought real hard for that. If you look at the content, like 99% of it is like super positive and uplifting. And it's saying like you can have whatever emotions you need to have and all this stuff. Like, it's not just inherently violent or dangerous, because it's BPD. But I think that that's something that people really, really think is true.

Sara Amundson: 3:26

Yeah. And I will say if you're a friend or a family member, or a partner of someone with borderline, that's just one of the things you've got to be prepared to weather the storm on. Like the anger happens, we can learn a ton of skills in DBT, to manage it, and to be like really appropriate with it or more appropriate with it. But the reality is, there's something every day that just makes me go from zero to like, whatever, pretty fast that does not warrant it. And one of the things for me, that is like instantaneous, as if I feel like I can't do something that will trigger me to feel stupid. And if I feel stupid, I get really angry really, really quickly. And that's like a quick shutdown. And if somebody tries to help me, that's when I'll start to like counter attack. And it's I've seen the cycle like millions of times in my life. So I've had to get to a place where I'm like, if I am really, obviously dysregulated by trying to do something myself, people need to not try to step in and help me I just need to learn to like self soothe and calm down and then I'll ask for help. That's the best way to manage that.

Laurie Edmundson: 4:40

So yeah, that's interesting to know that for you, it's about feeling dumb or like not being able to do something because for me, the thing that triggers my anger the most is injustice. Which might sound super lame, but just any injustice. I'm trying to think of-

Sara Amundson: 4:56

That is not lame, by the way. That is like the coolest thing that gets you angry. And I'm like, I can't be dumb. But you're like, oh, people are being mistreated. No, that's incredible.

Laurie Edmundson: 5:11

Okay, well, thank you. Just people treated differently. And like, that's definitely trauma from my childhood where certain people were treated completely differently than others. And I think that it just kind of like stuck in me that that's like, totally not okay. And that's really problematic. I mean, like, COVID's been a great example, injustice, like, you know, churches and stuff. I don't know where you live, but like, I live in basically the bible belt of BC, which is not where I belong. Although I do love it out here. And like, there's churches that are still gathering, even though it's like, illegal right now together. And they're saying like, Oh, well, it's because it's something that's good for wellness. And I'm like, you know, what's good for my wellness? Like, seeing my friends, seeing my family? Well, maybe not my family, seeing my friends? Why? Why can you use like your religion as like an excuse to do the wrong thing when like, I, I've been sitting at home for nine months doing nothing. So like things like that are just like, super triggering for me. Or like cheating in university. Oh, my God. I can't deal with that. Like, if I studied my ass off for a test, and then you treated like, No, you deserve to be expelled. I'm sorry. I get so mad. So yeah, that's my anger.

Sara Amundson: 6:27

Well, that's a good, that's a good intersection between like, anger and black and white thinking, right? Because that statement, if you cheated, you deserve to get expelled. That is so black and white. And you're not necessarily wrong about what if it's a single mom who like is working two jobs, right? Like, and she told me to? But like, we don't see that when we're angry. There is no, I don't care if she's a single mom, she cheated. I didn't get her out, you know, like, when we're dysregulated. So I noticed that the the anger for me and the black and white thinking are so inherently connected. And because I struggle to see shades of gray, then I really struggle to reduce the amount of anger that I feel.

Laurie Edmundson: 7:17

Yeah, I get like stuck in anger. So it that's honestly probably the most distressing part is like I can't get out of it. So it is of course the black and white thinking like you were saying, because if I was in the gray, I could probably like move to different shades of gray relatively easily. But like, if I'm mad at you, I am mad at you. And there is like very, very little little that you could do to redeem yourself. And it really sucks when I'm stuck in this place of anger, because the people around me don't get stuck for as long. So like somebody else I know can be angry at the same person. And we can be angry for the same reason. But I'm sitting there like, brooding over it for two weeks, and the other person got over it like that day. And you know, it keeps me up at night. Like it's all I can think about I can't do anything like I'm completely unproductive, like these kinds of things where when anger is within me, it's really problematic in that situation, whereas I'm not violent anymore. It's just like, distressing to me and like ruins my life.

Sara Amundson: 8:24

Yeah, I also get stuck in the anger. I like that you said it takes you two weeks to process that that's so normalizing for me. Because if I. So this is the cycle I notice outside of my like feeling stupid. If I'm hurt, it's hard for me to own feeling hurt. So then I go straight to anger. And I'll be stuck in the anger for like several weeks before I can confront the hurt with the person. Or I just don't confront it with them. And I process it independently because it's like too hard to explain to them that it took me three weeks to process it. But I really do have like a long, long processing time where anger and hurt is concerned. And I know that people have been like that is not normal. And it's like yeah, no, I get it. I get that other people like can process things a lot quicker, but other people don't feel anger and hurt as significantly as I do.

Laurie Edmundson: 9:23

For sure. And like how often do you get angry and then you know, you're still angry and you can't remember why you're angry anymore. And you just know that you hate that person.

Sara Amundson: 9:35

Dude, that's the worst because eventually you calm down and you realize that you were angry, like on such a serious level for something that was so ridiculous. But you can't feel less anger. You know, like, Oh, you ate my candy bar. I hate you. I wish I'd never met you like why did you ever introduce yourself to me? You know, like that wasn't worth the fact that you ate my candy bar, but I still feel like that. And I know to be on the receiving end of that anger or that hate is just so devastating. And there's reasons why we Yeah, it is, it's absolutely embarrassing. I have the worst emotional hangovers where shame is concerned, because I'm like, Oh, I took all of your clothes out of your closet and threw it down the stairs because you didn't want to whatever I wanted, or you didn't like, or you said something that made me feel rejected or hurt. And then I like went completely off the handle. It's completely embarrassing, embarrassing and devastating, and historically led to me engaging in a lot of self harm and suicidal thoughts and planning. At this point in my life, that's not really where I'm at. But I still carry a lot of shame about that. And I have felt a lot of fear about partners, family or friends finding out about my diagnosis, because of those kinds of things.

Laurie Edmundson: 11:06

I really do think that the stigma about anger and violence, and those don't necessarily need to be connected. But I think in the case of stigma that they are, is so profound, and people are just not given a chance when they have a borderline diagnosis when it comes to those things. If I were to get mad at somebody in a completely reasonable way. I depending on the person, like I've ruled most of these people out of my life, but I bet behind my back, they'd be saying, Oh, it's just because she's borderline and it's like, no, it's because you did "blank". And I was totally justified in being angry at you. And I really hate that a lot. Because it's not, it's not just because of borderline. Yeah, borderline, and maybe I feel things more intensely. And like maybe sometimes my anger is unreasonable. But there's a lot of times where it's completely reasonable. And using that as a throwaway excuse is not okay, either.

Sara Amundson: 12:04

Yeah. And that was, so when I was in DBT, learning to fact check was the most profound thing I could have ever been taught. Because you basically say, okay, there's the situation, it's prompted this feeling, we're gonna go one of two ways. Either our emotional response to this feeling was justified, or our emotional response to this feeling was not justified. And in my case, like, 90% of the time, it's not justified, but sometimes it is. And so when it's not justified, then I have to figure out like how to self soothe and come back. And then if it is justified, I still have to figure out how to self soothe and come back, but come back in a way that is effectively communicating how to problem solve the true hurt and anger. Whereas, you know, the other path, it's like, Okay, how do we get closer to baseline so that we can reassess? What's going on here. But nobody ever taught me how to do that. So I've just gone my entire life thinking that this anger is justified when it's not right. And that's wild, like being taught how to fact check was this huge? It was like the world opened up for me.

Laurie Edmundson: 13:15

Yeah, you said that so many times. And I think that for me, 'wise mind' is probably the DBT skill that I feel.

Sara Amundson: 13:24

Ew I hate that

Laurie Edmundson: 13:25

I know, it's so funny, because it's very much the same, basically, wise mind is a skill where if you picture a Venn diagram, on one side, you've got emotional mind. And on the other side, you've got rational mind. And then in the middle of the Venn diagram you've got, wise mind. So if you're ridiculously angry, you can behave with just your emotional mind. And that's probably where you're going to go as somebody with borderline personality disorder is like, this is my emotion, and it's taking over my reaction. Whereas your rational mind might say, these are just the facts like this is what I should do if I was 100%. Rational? Well, nobody should be 100% rational, that doesn't work. That's not how life is. And so wise mind is finding the behaviors and the emotions that fit in between the two. And that is your wise mind where you can sit in that place and react, not going to cause more harm, or not going to cause hurt to somebody else or yourself, but is still kind of taking into consideration both emotions and rationality. And it's funny that you hate it so much, because it's very much similar to fact checking

Sara Amundson: 14:35

It is. Maybe it triggers some of this feeling of feeling dumb for me. Now that you say that maybe I need to really try to understand why it is so triggering to me. I don't know. Yeah, that stay tuned, guys.

Laurie Edmundson: 14:54

We're gonna work through this.

Sara Amundson: 14:56

Yeah, anger. God

Laurie Edmundson: 15:00

Yeah, I think for me, like, there's two things that I want to say for sure in this episode, and one of them is, when I was younger, my anger was prevalent, and it was problematic and all of these things. But I was put into anger management, which I'm sure anger management works for a lot of people. Anger Management just made me more angry. And the reason it made me more angry was because it was about controlling the anger and the behaviors. It had nothing to do with the underlying causes. And so for me, all of my anger is because I have intense emotions, like it's not because I'm a bad person who's angry, and I'm sure 99% of people that have problems with anger, it's not because they're a bad person, and they're angry. It's, it just didn't work. Anger Management was completely useless to me. And this is where I think having the proper diagnosis is so important. Because the minute I was able to realize like, Oh, I'm so angry, because I feel things more intensely than the average person. And so my reaction to somebody not texting me back. That's a bad example. Because I never text people back my reaction to somebody

Sara Amundson: 16:12

It still can make you angry.

Laurie Edmundson: 16:13

Yeah, it's true. But my reaction to somebody like not saying hi to me when I see them on the sidewalk, which is also a bad example, because I avoid people so hard when I see them on the sidewalk,

Sara Amundson: 16:25

dude. So do I.

Laurie Edmundson: 16:27

I just like, I don't want to talk to anybody. But anyway, if my reaction to that is seemingly overreacting, it's not because I just have a tendency to overreact. It's because the emotions that I'm feeling are not the anger that the average person would feel when somebody just didn't wave to them on the sidewalk. It's the anger of somebody breaking off a relationship for the rest of your life. And understanding that, and going to DBT, and going to therapy, and also just doing a lot of self discovery about why I was angry, changed everything, changed my entire life, and all of the relationships that I have going forward. And I mean, there are relationships in my life, that will never be the same. Because I was so angry when I was younger, and I was violent, and all these things. And I've come to just accept that as it is I've moved on, I've done so much work on myself, and I'm no longer like that. But I mean, the reality is, that's you can't take away somebody's trauma after the fact.

Sara Amundson: 17:31

Can I ask you this, um, one of the things that I really struggle with, is, because, like, when I look at you, Laurie, I'm like, you've done such a beautiful job of just like accepting yourself and moving on. And maybe that's like, where you're like, I would take this life 10 times out of 10. And because you've had that ability, like, maybe it's that you've been in DBT longer, or maybe you're just like a sweet angel of a human that I'm not, I don't know. But I still,

Laurie Edmundson: 18:00

Its not that one, it's not the angel one.

Sara Amundson: 18:04

I still carry the anger of like a 12 year old girl around me, that's just like, so wound up with my identity. I don't think I've forgiven anyone for the hurt that they've done in the last 15 years. And that was one of the things that was, has been an was really hard in my relationship with Tori is she's just like, Sara it doesn't matter what anyone does or says for you. Like, you've never forgiven anyone for anything. And it's like, I I can't figure out how to let go of the I call it anger. But really, it's the hurt and it's the devastation of like feeling like I was never chosen or loved or accepted.

Laurie Edmundson: 18:49

Okay, so I definitely feel you on that never feeling chosen or loved or accepted. When I was younger. Absolutely. And I think that we've had this conversation, but sometimes I talk about DBT too much. You hate radical acceptance, right?

Sara Amundson: 19:06

I hate radical acceptance. You think I hate wise mind... I want to take a radical acceptance and like rip out all the pages from that book, stomp on them, like put them in a ball, light them on fire and like throw them in the Pacific Ocean. That is how much I hate radical acceptance.

Laurie Edmundson: 19:29

Which is absolutely hilarious to me, because I thought that that was the case. Although a lot of people I talked to hate radical acceptance. But I think that radical acceptance is how I moved from where you're sitting in that anger to just realizing that sometimes things aren't going to go the way I want them to but there's no way I can move backwards. So I'm just for the people that are listening that are like what is radical acceptance and why does Laurie want to get it tattooed all over her body because she's a weirdo.

Sara Amundson: 19:55

And why does Sara hate us so much? Because here's no way it could be real.

Laurie Edmundson: 20:00

Could it be black and white thinking? No. Anyway, okay, so this is the definition of radical acceptance according to Google, which is, you know, the answer to everything. Radical acceptance is when you stop fighting reality and stop responding with impulsive or destructive behaviors, when things aren't going the way you want them to you, and let go of bitterness that may have been keeping you trapped in a cycle of suffering. So Sara's rolling her eyes. In a way, I get what Sara is saying, That's impossible, you can't ever be in that spot. The way that radical acceptance really, really helped me was that I was dealing with the repercussions of my own anger and violence. So I had caused a lot of hurt. And I was doing a lot of work, to move past that, and to never be that person again. But a lot of the people in my life weren't able to see this new person. And in some ways, they weren't able to see this new person that I had become.

Because A: 21:08

they didn't spend time with me. And they didn't, they just literally didn't see which is fair,

2: 21:13

because the trauma of how I had been in the past was probably just like, being projected on to what I was currently. And so they weren't able to see past their perception of what I usually am like, which is, again, fair. But I realized that I could sit at home, and I could be miserable about all of the things that I had done in the past, or all of the hurt that I had caused, or all of the relationships that I had damaged. Or I could say, okay, shit happened, I feel terribly about that. I apologized for that. And there is literally nothing I can do to turn back time. So I need to move on from this. And to me, that's what radical acceptance is, it's, it's just going like, there is nothing that I can do to change the past... that is literally impossible. Unless we want to go back into Harry Potter World, like we were talking about, in another episode for way too long and talk about time-turner's... there, there's no way to change what you've done. And so you just have to be able to let that go. And like, Do I have a lot of things that I could and sometimes feel, sometimes do feel resentful for when I was a kid or whatever. Totally, but somehow I've just been able to kind of use this skill. Like a lot, I guess, like I think, when I was in DBT, it was the number one skill that I felt changed my life. Because I just had to get I had to move past all of those things that had happened in the past, there was no way I could have ever gotten out of like it said in the definition gotten out of this cycle of hatred, anger, sadness, suicidality, self harm if I didn't move past those things.

Sara Amundson: 23:00

Yeah, and I mean, I'm sitting here listening to you. And on the one hand, it's like so profound, and on the other hand, I feel like you're so full of shit. Like, not that you are full of shit. But when I try to apply that thinking to my life, I'm like, I don't even know how to do that. That's where the full of shit part comes in. Does that make sense?

Laurie Edmundson: 23:20

Totally. And I mean, it's, it's not normally how I would like feel like I'm not into like, like touchy feely emotion stuff, necessarily, very often, like I'm pretty, you know, science driven, like, all of these things, and that is very much not like that. I don't know. It was I learned it exactly when I needed to learn it. And like, that's it like I credit it for so much. I've literally considered getting a tattoo that says radical acceptance, because I

Sara Amundson: 23:52

You should

Laurie Edmundson: 23:53

I don't have any tattoos.

Sara Amundson: 23:55

What?

Laurie Edmundson: 23:56

I know I have zero.

Sara Amundson: 23:57

How did it, How did this not come up during our impulsivity episode? I've gotten so many. I have matching tattoos with like three people I hate. Okay, we'll come back to this another day.

Laurie Edmundson: 24:14

No, but that's why, Sorry, I have to say something, that's why I don't have tattoos is because my passion / love / obsession, whatever you want to call it changes so rapidly that I don't trust myself for a hot minute to get a tattoo that resonates with me five minutes later.

Sara Amundson: 24:32

So that's my thing is that I feel like I'm gonna be like a hot mess. 80 year old and I'm just gonna be like, this body shows some stories, man, like, I like once dated a girl who like cheated on me at a wedding that I've got a matching tattoo with, you know what I mean. Like I just, yeah, that's gonna be a story. I'll tell somebody at the nursing home and like 60 years... when they're like why do you have a triangle on your pinky finger on your left hand? I don't know, I felt like it.

Laurie Edmundson: 25:05

No, I mean, I'm not against tattoos, I'm just I know myself well enough to know that I would dislike them. Or like, I would not like the same thing for long enough to make it matter. I will say though, I also worry that getting a tattoo- so I've always thought about getting radical radical acceptance tattooed on my wrist where I felt like the arm that I usually self harm on or used to self harm on. And sometimes I worry that it would almost cause me to want to self harm, again, to have a reminder like that on my wrist, which is so strange. But I've always worried about that. Just because it's like a reminder of like, oh, Laurie, like you're not using the skills. So like, if I'm already in that spot where I like, wanted to self harm, it might like trigger me more to do

Sara Amundson: 25:49

To like attack it. I see. Interesting. Yeah, I it. I'm not sure don't know. Um, do you also just have this like, really beautiful, like, pure, like, put together look about you that I just am like, so in awe of and I am just like, dude, I am so rough around the edges, like my hands are tattooed. Like, I've got, like, you know, one pair of jeans, I'm just, I don't have a house plant I could keep alive. I'm gonna live in a van. Like you're just, you're just like a real grown up and I'm not so-

Laurie Edmundson: 26:24

Dad, if you're listening, please, please keep in mind that Sara just called me pure. Two weeks after you asked me what color I was going to wear to my wedding because it sure shouldn't be white. Just like to point that out. Please listen to this. And please text me when you hear it.

Sara Amundson: 26:40

Laurie is so pure. Okay, um, I don't know how I got on the tattoo topic. But oh, radical acceptance. So I think it is so beautiful that you've been able to, like adopt that belief about yourself. And truly I have this like, like, deep like jealousy, because I feel like I've been carrying the weight of so many family traumas on my shoulders for so long that I was witness to as a young person that I should have never been witness to. And that just has always felt like one thing after another in my life that just like the anger of like, why did this always happen? Why was I always witness to this, when I didn't want to be and shouldn't have been, and someone should have protected me from this. Like that is the kind of anger I've been carrying for 15 years that I just can't figure out how to let go of. And it's funny because I talk to my clients about radical acceptance, like, I've assigned them readings about radical acceptance, I totally see the value in it, I can't figure out how to apply it to my life.

Laurie Edmundson: 27:50

I mean, I just I would like to just say that I'm one of those weird people with BPD that doesn't have a significant trauma history. I mean, I like I'm not un-traumatized, but I don't have like significant, you know, traumas building on top of each other. So maybe that's why it came so easily. To me, it's quite possible that the things that I needed to accept were mostly things that I had initiated. And so it was easier to accept, because no child should go through trauma, no child should be abandoned. No child should witness violence. I'm a strong, strong, strong advocate for the fact that we need to talk about Adverse Childhood Experiences more often. So yeah, maybe it's just a different background. Or maybe it's not the right skill for you. I mean, that's the thing, like, not every skill works for every person, and that's totally okay, and normal.

Sara Amundson: 28:42

Yeah. I'm like such a behaviorist, too. So the things in DBT that really worked for me are fact checking and cope ahead. And it's like, those are things I can plan for and process and apply. Whereas radical acceptance is this weird... I can't write a list for that. I can't track that on like a data sheet. You know what I mean? So I can't, if I can't contextualize that, I can't figure out how to apply it. Where as coping ahead is just literally, like, when I feel this, this happens. So if this happens, this is what I need. And this is who I need it from. But like, how do you take that and reverse engineer it for 15 years? And not only that, right? But then when we start talking about generational trauma, like both of my parents came from abusive households living in poverty. Their parents came from abusive households living in poverty, sexual assault, like physical assault, like all of those things. I'm also like, was raised in family in Mormon culture. So there's all of that like potential for inbreeding, right? Like genetically at some point not too far removed. I my you know, cousins were with cousins or whatever, you know, whatever. So like all of those genetic things, I think, also play a role. But yeah, I can't figure out radical acceptance. And it makes me feel shame. I feel shame about carrying 15 or 20 years worth of anger on my back every day. I feel like I should be over it by now, but I just can't figure it out.

Laurie Edmundson: 30:26

I don't think that, that level of just like compacting trauma is something you can just get over. I'm not over the things that I've radically accepted. Don't get me wrong. They still make me incredibly sad. They still make me incredibly. Again, like we're going back to this thing where I can't name the emotion for some reason, but like, angry but not angry, just like sad/mad for myself, like when I was a child. But yeah, I mean, I don't know. It's so interesting. We'll see if maybe like, the more we talk about things throughout recording and process different things. Maybe it will kind of radical acceptance will speak to you more.

Sara Amundson: 31:10

Yeah, yeah, perhaps. I also just think it's important to like, This podcast is about normalizing. Right. So I know there's gonna be a ton of people out there that can totally identify with where I'm at, which is like, Man, you do the work and you figure out how to be adaptive and you still feel a shitload of pain every day and like that, like, I have no question that I am always going to feel a significant amount of pain. Like, I felt this way, my whole life. I can't imagine not feeling like this. It doesn't mean that my life is any less worthy or valuable. It just means like, I have to talk about my pain a lot. Like that's just kind of where it is.

Laurie Edmundson: 31:52

Yeah, we're the weird people who go on Tinder dates and talk about trauma and suicide. I can guarantee you

Sara Amundson: 31:58

Can we just talk about like, dating and being like, yeah, so tell me about your childhood trauma? Like I can't really like vibe with anyone that doesn't have a certain amount of self hate. So just like... Tell me where you're at.

Laurie Edmundson: 32:12

Exactly. Oh, I honestly miss days of just like freaking people out at random bars and being like, so yeah, suicide. They're like, what's your favorite color? It's like, oh, sorry, we're not compatible, my bad.

Sara Amundson: 32:28

Okay, so this is my favorite icebreaker is: if you were on death row, and it's your last meal on earth, What is it?

Laurie Edmundson: 32:35

I think mine would be McDonalds

Sara Amundson: 32:37

Food, right? but it tells a lot about people. Okay, let's hear it. What's your last meal on earth Laurie?

Laurie Edmundson: 32:43

McDonald's I think, straight up

Sara Amundson: 32:45

Yeah, but what?

Laurie Edmundson: 32:46

Oh, two double cheeseburgers, no pickle, extra onion and large fries, large Diet Coke, mcchicken sauce and probably an Oreo mcflurry with either caramel or strawberry depending on the day.

Sara Amundson: 33:00

See if I was getting fast food french fries it'd be Burgerville or Carl's Jr. Like I just can't get down on the Mickey D's fries.

Laurie Edmundson: 33:09

What is Burgerville?

Sara Amundson: 33:11

Ah oh my god. Okay yeah, local to Portland so we, so basically just like Centralia to Portland just like an 80 mile radius / 90 mile radius probably is it's like our local fast food joint. And I missed it so much when I was on the road. But um, yeah, kind of like how you guys only have like Tim Hortons up there. We only have Burgerville here. Nowhere else in the states and it's so good. So when when the borders finally open, I can't wait to have you come come through for some burgerville But yeah, yeah, I just can't get down with people that don't have like a certain level of... I don't know how to relate to people. I guess. Like I can't do small talk.

Laurie Edmundson: 34:02

Yeah, I don't. I don't like small talk either. Really? It's just boring. And I would if I'm going to talk to you I want to talk to you about like real shit. And what's the weather is not real shit. I realized that like, some people are just like, not comfortable talking about weird stuff. But I mean, the other day my I guess my friend's husband was worried that he had offended me. And my friend was like, if you could offend Laurie like that's legitimately something to be proud of. Like I have never met anybody that has offended Laurie. I was like, yeah, that's super true. Like I don't know if I've ever met somebody that's offended Laurie before. That is awesome.

Sara Amundson: 34:41

So like Laurie is the only one that offends Laurie.

Laurie Edmundson: 34:44

Yeah, pretty much yeah. People that like say things about borderline specifically I get angry about but that, that doesn't happen very often and I usually make them feel so awkward afterwards that like it works out. Oh, can we talk about like spite.

Sara Amundson: 35:00

We can talk about anything.

Laurie Edmundson: 35:04

So like, I, when I get angry, I want revenge. Kind of,

Sara Amundson: 35:11

Oh dude, I will ruin your life. I don't know how many times I've said to somebody, I will fucking ruin your life like... you- Which- What am I going to do steal someone's social security number or something and like, rack up some credit card debt? No, no, I'm never actually going to ruin someone's life. But like, when I'm really angry, I'm just like, I want you to hurt as much as I hurt right now. And it's not fair. It's not appropriate. But like, that is the only thing in the moment that makes me feel like I'll feel better, even though I will not feel better, it does not work. It's not helpful. Like, that's definitely where we gotta fact check. But if I am really hurt, or really angry, my brain immediately just wants to like attack somebody else and make them hurt as much as I do. And it never works. And it's not appropriate. And I don't like that. But when I'm dysregulated. And if I haven't used my skills, that's immediately where I go.

Laurie Edmundson: 36:08

Yeah, I really hate that about myself. Because I do the same thing. And I don't think that I'm like a hateful person. I guess I maybe am a hateful person. But like, I hate myself for feeling that way. So like, but I can't stop it. This is where like, the weird cycles come in. Like, I cannot get out of that cycle. And like, I can be sitting there like, saying the worst possible things about somebody that I like, genuinely love to bits. And I want to stop, but I actually can't.

Sara Amundson: 36:38

Yeah, that's where the most shame lives for me. I mean, like, anger is just- we could just talk forever about this, like I have said, the most terrible things to people that I love. Like, I have called people some really bad names. I've said some really horrible things to people. And it's not because I'm a bad person. And it's not because I mean those things. It's because in the moment, I literally can't see or think about anything other than- I feel like my life is ending. So I have to counter attack.

Laurie Edmundson: 37:12

Yeah, that's definitely something I need to work on. Like, still

Sara Amundson: 37:16

100% Me too. And so - I mean, at this point, it's just like common knowledge that Tori and I are getting divorced, and it's devastating, but it's just a part of my life. And really, in the last, like month, I've had to seriously look at like, Am I going to let myself go out of this marriage full of hate? Or am I going to like go out of this marriage and loving her as much as I did when I first entered the relationship and I am really committed to walking away from this marriage with as much love as I had when I entered it. Because like Tori does not deserve for me to call her names and to be mean to her. Like this partnership isn't working for a variety of reasons. But I do not want to be mean to her. I love her so fucking much. I do not want to be mean to her every single day. I have to remind myself of that, like Sara, you love her. So if she says or does something to you, that makes you feel bad right now, you take some time and you regulate you're not going to come back and counter attack like that is not who we are. Like I say we cuz I'm like me and me like we're doing this together.

Laurie Edmundson: 38:27

That's another whole conversation we should have is like, we I never want to say this because borderline can often misconstrued as dissociative identity disorder, multiple personality disorder. And those aren't the same thing. But like, there is like two me's, kind of. There's like angry me who I call Phyllis, which is super random. But my friend said that paranoid Phyllis rhymes which like, clearly that's not true. But it stuck. That's been like 10 years. And then there's like, me that's like regulated. And Phyllis doesn't come up very often. But like when she does, that's me like angry and dysregulated. And I know somebody in DBT with me, called it the fiery bitch ball inside of her. And I was like, love it. I still remember that description because that's kind of what it is. It's just this like thing that heats up and you can't cool it off without exploding, seemingly.

Sara Amundson: 39:19

Yeah, that's actually a really I'm so glad that you identify with that. Like, I wholeheartedly think there's like two pieces of me and that's like, regulated Sara who is like so wonderful. I love regulated, Sara. I'm so sweet and so thoughtful and so kind of funny and like, articulate and then there's angry Sara and it's like, you better get out of her way. You know what I mean? And it's not pretty and I don't like it. And so in this, the closing of this partnership, it's like, angry Sara doesn't get to have a seat at this table. Tori doesn't need or deserve angry Sara. And I don't need or deserve angry Sara, right, my life looks really really good without angry Sara. And so it's just been about like having this dialogue with myself. And the older I get, the easier it becomes because my subsequent units of distress are not nearly as high ever. So I don't know if anyone's ever heard that term'subs'. But basically, your subsequent units of distress are how quickly you become distressed. And once they're like over a 70 out of 100, you biologically can't hear another person. And I'm really quick to become really incredibly escalated. And at that point, it's like, it doesn't matter what anyone says or does to me, I cannot interpret and process that information. So I have to, like, inwardly cope. So what I'm doing is just working super, super, super hard to make sure that my subs don't get that high. Because when I am that high, that's when I'm like, Fuck you. Fuck this, I hate you like it. And none of those things are helpful.

Laurie Edmundson: 41:04

Yeah, no, it never really works when you say that does it. I think that's where like coping ahead is such a good skill, right is going okay. I you know that if this is said, I'm going to feel 'x' suds, right, like this is this is how I'm going to be. So I need to be able to be prepared to say like, I'm not going to be able to continue this conversation right now until I'm able to take some time to de-escalate myself. Not, how dare you say that, because they're not, I mean, within reason, they're not responsible for the emotions that you're feeling. But it's, it's on you to be able to control those emotions, even if what they're saying is mean, or whatever it is. you can't stop them from making you feel.

Sara Amundson: 41:47

Yeah, and I also, one of the things I've learned to do is when I communicate to people, being able to use the

equation: 41:54

when you do this, I feel this. Instead of, you're making me feel. I have to really learn how, and I've, I'm getting better about like learning how to own my feelings and not putting them on another person. And historically, I've always been really bad about being like, Fuck you, you made me angry. No, Sarah. Like you're angry. They did something... but that's your feeling. And so it's your responsibility to cope with it.

Laurie Edmundson: 42:26

That's the thing, right? It's like, you're the only one who can do anything about that emotion at the time. So you need to be able to take responsibility for that. Yeah. So before we wrap up, because I feel like we probably could talk about anger for the rest of our lives. And maybe we'll have some guests on and talk about, like different perspectives on anger. But before I wrap up, I do want to just say, as much as not everybody with borderline personality disorder has problems with anger, most people with borderline personality disorder don't have problems with violence. But if you are a family member, or a friend, somebody living with somebody with borderline and you are in danger, you need to be able to call them on that and put yourself in safety. Like you, you can't stay in harm's way, because you're worried about how you're going to make them feel. And we all need to come into these things with empathy. But I mean, I get phone calls from parents all the time where their kids have borderline, and they're just like, I'm scared for my life, and I don't know what to do. And I'm like, well, you clearly want to help your child a lot. Like that's, that's clear, you wouldn't be calling me if you didn't care deeply deeply about your child. You can't help your child if you're not safe, or alive, or whatever it is. So if you need to make boundaries, and I do think that boundaries are really important, and like if they're laid out properly, people with borderline often can respect them and resonate well with them. But you have to keep yourself safe. So I mean, that would be the same if I had a super abusive partner like, I would hope that I would realize that like I need to protect myself to be able to help that person. But I just wanted to say that before we close, because it is really important to remember that your safety is important. And just because somebody has a mental illness, it doesn't mean that you need to put up with violence or anger all the time.

Sara Amundson: 44:28

Absolutely. And I just want to remind people that these are not things that are happening every day in our lives. We are functional people who like I run a business, Laurie's, you know, been employed forever. We both have had beautiful partnerships and friendships and all these things. But this episode was focused on anger. So we got we got down on it but DBT medication, strong psychosocial support. It's like the combination of all of those things. makes it possible to live a life where people like may be angry and process that really well. And it's not that big of a deal, you know. So please don't forget that if you're out there listening to some of our stories that we're able to laugh at, it's like we're able to laugh at it, because we're pretty far removed from these things now, because we work really hard at recovery.

Laurie Edmundson: 45:23

That's the perfect way to end I think. Thank you for saying that. Honestly, that is so important. Because Yeah, if you were to just pick up this episode, you'd be like, holy shit, these people are crazy. And that's not what we want.

Sara Amundson: 45:35

No, I've got. Yeah. And I have to be able to date eventually. So if somebody is listening to this episode, I am fabulous.

Laurie Edmundson: 45:43

Yes, she is absolutely fabulous. She's never been angry day in her life. That's all I can say. Although

you should google: 45:50

are people with borderline good at sex, because that is something that comes up on Google. So just just a thought, it autofills...

Sara Amundson: 45:57

Oh we're gonna have to make out a whole episode on that. Alright, guys, thanks for listening. And we'll see you at the next one. Hi, friends. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the bold, beautiful borderline podcast. Laurie and I are so grateful that you're here with us on this journey. And we can't wait to dive into more topics in the future with you all about borderline, and even have some more fun and exciting guests to join us on the podcast. If you really enjoyed this episode, we would love if you would rate review and subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. We would also love to see you interact with us on social media and on our Patreon page, the links to that are included in the show notes. So check us out there. We would be incredibly honored to get to know you all as you get to know us and our recovery stories. We love you and we'll see you next time.